Re: A lot on my mind

[Judith Rosen <***>]

Hi David,

That's quite a list you've got there! I would need more specifics to be able to fill in any gaps for you. 

Bayesian statistics: 
Can't help with this one. Statistics are of extremely limited use, scientifically, anyway, and yet they are ubiquitous in science-- and in everything else. I don't understand why so many people rely on that kind of analysis. It's only useful if you have gathered your data yourself or know for a fact the context under which it was gathered. Otherwise, the data is suspect, the organization of the data is suspect, and statistics (in general) are such that they can be made to dance for whatever tune the piper chooses to play.

The "(M,R)-Systems":
What aspects of these are you most interested in/most baffled by?

The Three aspects of Agency:
I don't know what you mean by "agency"... can you develop this a bit more? (Why only three?)

Entailment and Conditional Statements:
This is a huge area. Conditional statements can refer to context dependence but also a wide range of other applications and fields. There is so much to talk about here, but if I launched into some of the things which interest me, I might still completely miss the areas that are of interest to you. More detail, please?

Aristotelian Analysis:
Likewise: Other than what we've already discussed, what are the areas that still baffle or are of most interest?

Analytic equations vs. Algabraic relations:
Again, math is not my forte, but if you want to discuss this and no one on the list is interested, I will send you to Dr. Aloisius Louie. He's got the chops. I will reiterate, though, that the math is not required for deep understanding of Robert Rosen's ideas-- or his work, for that matter. The work is no more about the math than building a house is about a hammer.

The Original emergence of life/Induced emergence of life:
We can never know for sure any details about the original emergence of life on Earth (I assume you mean "on Earth", right? Not "in general"?). We can't even really be sure that it happened ON Earth! When it comes right down to it, there is no way to ever know those full entailments, whatever they were, never mind the causal expression that arose from them. Life as it is now is vastly different from what life was then because conditions on Earth are vastly different. Dan and I have had this ongoing dialogue about "community" and life as reliant on community. Currently, I would say that this is the case. But initially, it wasn't. Either way, the aspect of community that life incorporates now is actually just the effect of community as part of the collection of environmental effects/aspects that are incorporated into living system organization. If some effect is a reliable and constant aspect of the environment (environment meaning: all that is "non-self". That's the organism's perspective on things...), then it becomes part of organismal "self" in various ways. The oxygen in our atmosphere is a perfect example: it did not exist when life first emerged on this planet (as far as we are able to tell, that is). It is a consequence of plant life activity. But it is encoded and incorporated into all of us, now. It's part of our evolutionary context. So these things are really about context, not about life. They tell us about how life and context are related and how they interact. 

I'll wait for your replies before launching any further discussion. If anyone else is interested in any aspect of these issues David raised, let's talk about those too?

Judith


Web address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com
BioTheory: An electronic journal of general science based on the Relational (Rosennean) Complexity Paradigm
On Dec 7, 2005, at 11:13 PM, David Macy wrote:

> <x-tad-smaller>Hey Guys,</x-tad-smaller>
>  
> <x-tad-smaller>    Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I've got a lot of things kind of floating around in my head.</x-tad-smaller>
>  
> <x-tad-smaller>For instance:</x-tad-smaller>
>  
> <x-tad-smaller>Bayesian statistics</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>(M,R)-systems</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>the three aspects of agency</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>entailment and conditional statements</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>Aristotlean analysis</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>analytic equations vs. algebraic relations</x-tad-smaller>
> <x-tad-smaller>the original and induced emergence of life</x-tad-smaller>
>  
> <x-tad-smaller>Whew!  Now if I could only put some of it together in a comprehensive and coherent fashion so that I can explain it all to my nephews before they turn twelve then I will feel as if I have accomplished something!  I'm glad that the oldest is only now five and all I have to worry about is what set of Legos I'm going to get him for Christmas!</x-tad-smaller>
>  
> <x-tad-smaller>David</x-tad-smaller>