Re: the "(M,R)-System" model, Modeling relations, and semantics

[John M <***>]

To:  JZ and JR from JM
*
1. to JZ:
A faulty 'reversing' of time is the Big Bang narrative
(of phys. Cosmology) which follows the precise
reversal of "time" however in the unprecise events
(changes) as followed linearly in a nonlinearly
developed history. (JR please remember that in mi
later remarks to your 'opinion').
Pattee's (and many others')material-based vision is
the 'model' view of physical sciences, distorted by
the mathematical (OOPS: "applied mathematical")
treatment of the limited (eo ipso improperly
quantized) 'cut' model-values by a proper (?) math.
Constants and other corrections (additional incented
factors, etc.) cannot correct the difference between a
boundary-enclosed real model (value) and the
(unidentified, unlimitedly factored and steadily
changing) 'natural system value it is supposed to
stand for.
*
2. to JR:
To consider time or change as the ultimate 'original'
is your preferential right (and mine as well). I feel
we have more 'insight' into the better identifiable
(conceptual?) change than the elusive time and you may
expose yourself to questions about this fundamental
and 
- as you wrote:
> > of time; the co-organized nature of space and time
> > in our universe are 
> > an integral aspect of the fabric of all things/all
> > existence. <
which is so different according to the speed you
travel with (Einstein). So not 'all times' are equal
either.
"> >It's not so simple that it can be dismissed as 
> > "just a creation of our minds".< <
Did I say that? then I was wrong. 'Numbers' may be the
creation of our minds to simplify meanings into a one
- planar application, but how this universe's
consciousness makes 'order' in its own setup is much
beyond our feeble mind. 
(((What I wrote:
>>>Change is a self-evident experience and needs
>>> not to be 'figured' out. We invented the concept
>>>of time to explain it.<<< 
was meant as to invent the application of time in
explanations - it became so fundamental...))) 
Space and time are the coordinates of our (this one)
universe-system usable to 'order' whatever we learn
about it, attributes to observation (including ours).
To modeling, if you want. 
(Other universes may have different attributes...we
just didn't learn about those). 
*
I do not argue with those physical models you
mentioned (except maybe the 'visibility' of the air as
a blue sky). They are all in the inventory of
reductionistic science (and common sense) and I rather
concentrate here on unlimited 'natural' items in RR's
'complexity'. 
*
I received a long reply in the topic on that other
list and I believe it is too long to copy here (beside
some considerations of the unidentified
"list-copyright").
John M

--- Jerry Zhu <***> wrote:

> Hi Judith and John,
> 
> Classic physics deal with end points, trajectories,
> and movements hence deal with change. But this
> change
> is reversible.  The film can be rewinded.  I wonder
> how irresibility (arrow of time, rate of change
> etc.)
> is explained in your model which time is not dealt
> with directly.  According to Jantsch the study of
> universe must include at least three levels of
> inquiry
> of physics which refers to what Pattee means matter
> aspect which is logical the language of which is
> mathematics.  the symobol aspect is formal and hence
> is eternal and timeless the language of which is
> archetyes.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> --- Judith Rosen <***> wrote:
> 
> > Hi John M,
> > 
> > How do we know that it isn't a case of "time is a
> > self-evident 
> > experience and needs not to be "figured out"-- we
> > invented the concept 
> > of change to explain it"?
> > 
> > My take on  it is that change is only possible
> > because of the existence 
> > of time; the co-organized nature of space and time
> > in our universe are 
> > an integral aspect of the fabric of all things/all
> > existence.  Change 
> > is one of the manifestations which make time
> > "visible" to our senses, 
> > but change is not a generic thing, such that all
> > change can be said to 
> > be "equal".
truncated