Re: the "(M,R)-System" model, Modeling relations, and semantics

[Jerry Zhu <***>]

Hi Judith and John,

Classic physics deal with end points, trajectories,
and movements hence deal with change. But this change
is reversible.  The film can be rewinded.  I wonder
how irresibility (arrow of time, rate of change etc.)
is explained in your model which time is not dealt
with directly.  According to Jantsch the study of
universe must include at least three levels of inquiry
of physics which refers to what Pattee means matter
aspect which is logical the language of which is
mathematics.  the symobol aspect is formal and hence
is eternal and timeless the language of which is
archetyes.

Jerry

--- Judith Rosen <***> wrote:

> Hi John M,
> 
> How do we know that it isn't a case of "time is a
> self-evident 
> experience and needs not to be "figured out"-- we
> invented the concept 
> of change to explain it"?
> 
> My take on  it is that change is only possible
> because of the existence 
> of time; the co-organized nature of space and time
> in our universe are 
> an integral aspect of the fabric of all things/all
> existence.  Change 
> is one of the manifestations which make time
> "visible" to our senses, 
> but change is not a generic thing, such that all
> change can be said to 
> be "equal". There are other aspects of time, visible
> because of change: 
> rate and sequence, for example. There are many
> others. It's not so 
> simple that it can be dismissed as "just a creation
> of our minds". Many 
> forces in this universe are only visible to our
> senses in oblique ways, 
> and only under certain circumstances. Air becomes
> visible to our senses 
> when there is wind, for example. Or when smoke is
> present. However, I 
> do think that what we know of time is always going
> to be based on the 
> effects of the complex co-organization of it into
> the universe--- which 
> may explain why you noticed that "motion has, in
> space, a time 
> coordinate and, in time, a spatial coordinate."
> 
> There is a difference, by the way (this directed
> more at Jerry Z.), 
> between the treatment of time in relational modeling
> of systems and the 
> subtraction of time in analytic models (replaced by
> simplistic 
> substitutions of it). In relational modeling, time
> is implied-- 
> entailed, if you prefer that term-- by the nature of
> modeling a 
> process. It's inclusion is automatic, because of the
> relations 
> specified. In that way, a relational model is both
> rooted in time AND 
> generally applicable. In contrast, analytic models
> of processes tend to 
> specify time exactly, based on physical
> approximations of an 
> oversimplified definition of time( "clock-time" or
> "speed of 
> light"...). In my view, this makes a model unlikely
> to be applicable 
> outside of a very small set of highly structured
> cases (factory floor 
> models of how long it takes to put a car or a
> computer together, for 
> example). Even in applications such as that, I think
> they will find the 
> model is too simplistic; the human element is the
> (complex) wild card.
> 
> Judith
> 
> 
> 
> > Time? in another discussion I asked for an
> > identification of time to apply in my struggle how
> to
> > figure a timeless (a-temporal) world-system,
> > especially to apply to "change" without
> time-concept
> > involved.
> > I received a reply I want to share:
> > "(JM: "how you figure a 'change' without the time
> > concept?")
> >         Change is a self-evident experience and
> needs
> > not to be 'figured' out. We invented the concept
> of
> > time to explain it. Change IS the fundamental
> > variable, not time." (MindBrain list - Dr.d)
> >
> > Which is exactly how I figured a decade ago the
> motion
> > as having in space a time-coordinate and in time a
> > spatial coordinate. (Motion, as the pysical
> variant of
> > change). I just failed to generalize.
> >
> > John M
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Jerry Zhu <***> wrote:
> >
> > truncated
> >
> 



                
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