Re: Impredicativity, Rosen, life, formalism, open causality

[John M <***>]

Daniel,
interesting post. Let me make some short remarks on
the points you raised - my way <G>:
[DF]:
> 1) Life systems, while self-constructing, are also
> formal or
> have aspects that are analogous to, similar to,
> perhaps
> well-modeled as  formal structures. So it seems life
> presents
> examples of "formal" systems that self-construct,
> something
> Calvin seemed to say was impossible.
[JM]:
I was never hiding my ignorance about "life" as an
unidentified, elusive process under unlimited
citcumstances. The one 'biology' speaks about is a
model, so it may be a formal system.
Self-constructing is Greek to me, why would a system
"decide" out of a sudden to 'self-construct' life? it
is IMO the deterministic outcome of infinite origin
impact upon the 'unit' that self-constructs, as a well
established process-result (with response) - as is
anything else that occurs.

[DF]:
> 2) If Rosen's important result above is a valid way
> to bridge
> between formal systems and life systems, I wonder if
> his
> statements can in fact be formalized and proven as
> Calvin
> suggets? I think it would be a great service if he
> can, either
> prove or disprove for that matter.

[JM]:
My hunch is: it is a futile effort to 'formalize' or
'rigorousize' a non-computable natural system with
unlimited variables and a/effects in unidentified
efficiency upon it. You can do something like that on
a model, well limited, identified and cut.

[DF]:
> 3) Another aspect I am curious about is "open
> causality" ...and "causal openness"
[JM]:
My take (open to disagreement and I am not defending
it): in a natural system (RR-complexity), wholeness,
an event is "caused" by the cumulative effects of the
un;limited changes in the world. The "CAUSE" we like
to identify is a model-view within a model proper. 
(See the above point). In the deterministic ways I
acknowledge everything that happens is originated by
such cumulative changes of them all. Some factors we
observe as "more important" than others. Some we don't
see, some didn't yet discover.  

I consider an 'ecosystemic' view useful and practical,
we LIVE in reductionstic (model-view) activity and it
is necessary for our survival. I would be surprized to
see a wholistic world-way actively pursued within some
centuries. Anyway I wait it out...

John M

--- Dan Fiscus <***> wrote:

> Calvin, Torkel, Glen, Judith, Tim, all,
> 
> Thanks for great debate! Learning a lot, but slowly
> and
> perhaps mainly
> metaphorically/analogically/intuitively
> at this point.
SNIP
> Dan
>