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Re: Senescence: Cells, ageing and cancer.



Jerry Z. wrote: Senescence of cell and senescence of organism are
related? 
 
Of course it's related! How could it not be related? We're talking about parts of the same living organism. But how it's related and what effects those relations create-- that's where the work has to be done. I agree with you that aging isn't simply a case of all body cells getting old. If it's the interface of the body with the encoded information that the body's "internal predictive models" are based on, then this would manifest itself as a global failure of the system without any clear-cut local reason. Or, as a general weakening of the system in its entirety, with a corresponding enhanced vulnerability to all sorts of natural hazards of life. Every compensatory measure the system generated would require a rebalance of all other relations affected, and when this begins to happen often enough and fast enough, the rebalance would never be completed before new ones arose. So the system enters a phase of constant imbalance, which is not a good place to be.
 
Cancer cells have all sorts of unique properties, unlike the body cells they were supposedly borne from. For example, they seem to have an entirely different sense of "self"; they've somehow reverted (or evolved) to the individual sense that a new organism would have. How to survive in the hostile environment in which they "evolved", how to exploit all opportunities which exist in that environment, and how to live, grow, and reproduce. There is no "intelligence" to it; it's all encoded behavior and goes with the territory of being an anticipatory system.
 
Body cells of a multicellular organism don't have an individual sense of self, they have a "we" instead of an "I". So, a suicide protocol of individual cells isn't really suicide-- not to the "self" that the cells recognize. The "we" continues and that's the imperative all individual body cells operate from. Cancer cells have an "I". They have their own agenda and their own drive to live and survive, as well as their own means for doing so. As RR described it; they are too adaptive in the individual sense and will ultimately kill the host, which they experience as "the environment". But their timeline is different from our experience of time. They have endless generations worth of time before confronted with the end. I have said before that no organism has any notion of "sustainability" encoded into it. That's not part of anticipation. The human mind, as far as I can see, is the only anticipatory system that even considers a concept like that. Our bodies surely don't.
 
But that doesn't explain aging. Cancer is a whole other phenomenon. Even infants can develop cancer. There have actually been cases in utero! But, like all complex systems, the way cancer develops from a healthy body is a different process from the way cancer behaves once it has come into being. I don't see how medical science can ever really understand the nature of something like cancer without considering the anticipatory aspects. And I suspect the same will be true about aging, as well. So, Jerry.... are you going to be the one who develops a breakthrough???
 
Judith

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Zhu
To: ***
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Senescence: Cells, ageing and cancer.

Senescence of cell and senescence of organism are
related?  As Judith said that cells die even before
baby was born.  So the aging of cells is not related
to the aging of the person. Or it is not that cells
are old and die.  Too me cancer cells divide faster
than cell death. It goes against that cells are old
and can not divide.

Thanks

Jerry


--- Rodrigo Peláez <***> wrote:

> The following appears in the last number of NATURE.
> It could be of interest
> to the list.


> This week in Nature four groups show, with striking
> in vivo evidence, that
> oncogene-induced cellular senescence represents a
> safety mechanism to
> suppress tumor progression. The identification of
> senescence as a defining
> feature of premalignant tumors could prove valuable
> in the diagnosis and
> prognosis of cancer. This web focus
>
<http://info.nature.com/cgi-bin24/DM/y/hUTa0HWIry0Dn0kIh0EQ>
>  brings
> together key publications on senescence and cancer
> including primary
> research papers, News & Views and a review article.
>
> Is growing old a good thing? As cells mature they
> naturally stop dividing
> and enter a period called senescence. But cellular
> senescence can also be
> induced prematurely by certain oncogenes involved in
> cancer development.
> Four papers in Nature show that, as previously
> suggested by in vitro
> studies, oncogene-induced cellular senescence
> represents a safety mechanism
> to suppress tumour progression in vivo. Cellular
> senescence also plays a key
> role in ageing. In this web focus, Nature brings
> together articles on
> senescence and cancer with key publications in
> ageing research, including
> primary research papers, News & Views and a review
> article.
>
>
>
<http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/senescence/index.html>
>
http://www.nature.com/nature/focus/senescence/index.html

> Rodrigo

> PS: In my post about entropy-syntropy and the work
> of Luigi Fantappie, I
> make a mistake in the conjugate of the verb To
> Admire. I write "I admired
> very much the work of Robert Rosen". Of course what
> I want to mean was: I
> admire.
>




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