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Re: goals and language?



David Macy wrote:  So I guess that I'll just have to grow into the vocabulary, becoming ever more confident with it's meaning and use. 

That's what I had to do, too. I think I've mentioned before that my father didn't speak the way he wrote? So, I had to learn the equivalent of a second vocabulary for him, once I got old enough to be interested in his work. There was a whole lotta years of "What does this mean?", "Why did you use that word to say that?", and "Why do you write like you do, Dad?" By the time I was in my early thirties, I had reached a point where we could just discuss the work, without much of that anymore, and he used to discuss each new paper as he was working on it.
 
But there have been words that have come up in discussions here on the list which never managed to get discussed in conversations with my father, and I have had to do some research for those. "Holonomic" was one. In general, I've gotten to a point where I can use the dictionary of his language (his published work) to learn definitions of unfamiliar words. That's a nice achievement, considering my lack of post-secondary science and math education. You know you're pretty fluent in a language, like French, say, when you can use a French dictionary rather than an English/French dictionary and it gives you everything you need. If I can do it, you can do it.
 
DM: Perhaps it would be a lot easier just to ask.  What exactly is an impredicativity? 
 
That's a good one! I had trouble with that word, too, and it was one of my later acquisitions. Impredicativity has to do with an innate, semantic self-reference, either in mathematics or in system organization, which cannot be dispensed with. So a predicative system is one possessing an organization which does not include any of these kinds of essential semantic qualities and therefore all predicative systems are reducible to syntax without loss of information. In other words; they are computable. Impredicative systems, then, are systems with organizations which include inherent semantic information which cannot be replaced by syntax without loss of essential information.
 
In mathematics, when number theory is treated as a predicative system and reduced to pure syntax, it causes terrible paradoxes and this was the example my father used to show that the existence of impredicativities in mathematics doesn't render it useless or make the use of mathematics "unscientific" or imprecise in all usage-- it just means that there are certain things that are inappropriate to do with it.  He was pointing out that the same is true in natural systems and the existence of inappropriate modes of approach also exist. But he was showing that impredicative natural systems, such as those dealt with in biology, are not beyond the scope of science, either. They are just beyond the scope of reductionism. He didn't feel that the two ought to be the same; science ought not to be limited to only a reductionist capability.
 
The word "impredicativity" is derived from "predicate" which has the same Latin base roots as "predict" (dicere; to say, and prae; before) but the connotation is different, apparently, because my Webster's (unabridged) dictionary defines predicate as meaning "to proclaim". I believe my father's usage is based on the fact that certain system organizations can be reduced to formalisms and everything else about them is then "predicated" on that information.
 
Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: David Macy
To: ***
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: [ROSEN] goals and language?

Hey Judith,
 
    I love it when I can make you laugh, but I feel that if I explicitly tried I would probably fail.  I hear you on the TRS.  I can only try to speak from experience.  I want to use the language, but not if it's completely empty for me.  For instance the word -impredicativity- is not yet entirely solid for me.  I believe I understand the notion of final cause and -anticipation- is intuitive and familiar from experience.  I wouldn't want to use the words for the sake of conformity alone though.  That would be empty for me and an insult to you I think.  So I guess that I'll just have to grow into the vocabulary, becoming ever more confident with it's meaning and use.  I have used -impredicativity- tentatively for instance hoping that if I use it incorrectly someone will correct me.  Perhaps it would be a lot easier just to ask.  What excactly is an impredicativity?  What's comforting to know is that since we are each of us alive, we each have a natural born authority on the subject of life, a language that we alone know.  It's just a matter of bringing it into congruity.
 
Perhaps a lot of miscommunication happens because of differing goals.  Each here seem to have their own applications in mind.  We all wish to understand, but what we have in mind as being the fruit of that understanding seems to be different for each of us. 
 
On the "schizoid WE", believe it or not I am usually unaware of doing it.   Do you never do it?
 
 
David
 
 
P.S. Rodrigo, usted es muy estricto con usted mismo, en mi opinión.  Usted es inglés es fino y sus postes son buenos.
 
I hope you guys have a good weekend.