Re: machines vs. living systems

[David Macy <***>]

Hey Glen,

    I am glad that you stopped lurking and took the chance to speak with us.
You have a voice that rings very familiar to me.  You're a builder from way
back. So am I, so I can't help but appreciate it.  I also like your
willingness to be honestly wrong. I tend to sit on the fence to often or too
long, trying to broker some sort of peace (please don't tell me what you
think of that).

I have had the discussion before that there is no such thing as (actual,
material, in your face and hands, touching it, moving it, being moved by it)
artifice and artifact.  It's all natural.  I don't know why people have a
hard time even momentarily empathizing with the position.  Perhaps if we
could, our machines wouldn't often be so ugly (yes that's an aesthetic
assertion), but have more of the unstudied elegance of the organic.  I think
the point has been made elsewhere that if we were to venture to another
world and find an artifact not of our own making, we would still have to
conclude that the living had touched this place.  Have you ever seen a pair
of old work boots standing in someone's corner?  It looks almost as if
someone were still standing in them.

You want applications, right?  You want to know how to distinguish
non-living from living in a practical, measurable way.  Is that what you
really want to know?  Or do you doubt so completely that such a line can be
drawn that you will not see it?

I'm not being facetious.  The personalities of people are not best treated
as things, in my opinion. (this is a value call)


David



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "glen e. p. ropella" <***>
To: <***>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: machines vs. living systems


> Judith Rosen wrote:
> > Didn't I say Venter wasn't fabricating an organism by doing that?
>
> Yes.  But, either you didn't defend that opinion (possibly because
> everyone here already agrees with you ;-) or I didn't understand your
> defense.
>
> > What, specifically, are you wanting to do?
>
> This is a general inquiry.  I seem to lack a facility that you guys seem
> to have, namely the unadulterated ability to tell the difference between
> a machine and an organism... and complete confidence that you're right
> in your judgement.  I just don't have that ability.  It seems totally
> plausible that organisms are simply robust machines to me.
>
> That's what my inquiry is about.  But, as I said, perhaps it's not
> appropriate for this forum.
>
> -- 
> glen e. p. ropella              =><=                Hail Eris!
> H: 503-630-4505                       http://ropella.net/~gepr
> M: 503-971-3846                        http://tempusdictum.com