Re: life vs machine, open questions

[Dan Fiscus <***>]

glen e. p. ropella wrote:

> So, what you're suggesting is a possible answer to my question.  You
> might be saying (again, I'm paraphrasing in an attempt to give you
> feedback as to whether I understand you or not) that your qualitative
> measure that distinguishes a machine from an organism is as follows:
>
> If an object that you run across in the real world is (or can be thought
> of as) an _end_ in itself, then it is an organism.  If an object always
> is (or always appears to be) simply a means to some other end (a tool, a
> slave, etc.), then it is not an organism.  (It might be a machine, but
> there are other requirements for a machine that are unrelated to it
> being autotelic.)
>
> That would be a pretty damn good answer to my question.  _If_ that's
> what you're saying. [grin]

Glen,

I think this one is as good as most of the others. And I
think this answer is compatible with Rosen's criterion
that life systems are closed to efficient cause and
machines are not. Steve Kercel has said here (or maybe
on other Rosen list) that once you get closure to
efficient cause, closure of formal and final causes come
along with that organization as well. The final cause is
more directly akin to your words about something being
an end in itself as opposed to a means to some other
end. Maybe Rosen did not say this himself, not sure, but
I think self-final-causing also compatible with anticipation
as integral to life as he viewed it - the future determines
present behavior.

When you ask elsewhere about the appropriateness of
your general questions for this list, I think it a good
place to raise these issues and that both you and us of
the list prior could stand to gain from the debate and
dialogue. If you are looking for a closed and absolute
answer, though, I don't think you will find it here. But
I also don't think you will find it anywhere. I think these
big, general questions - akin to what is life? and Rosen's
perhaps better-posed form, why are organisms different
than machines? - will remain open for a long time yet.
So I think we all have to construct our own answers or
find communities in which we construct a consensus
answer, and that's as good as it gets. Just an opinion...

Dan