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Re: where mind begins and ends



Dave Macy wrote: ...while speaking with a guy who had a
Ph.D. in philosophy he asked, "where is the beginning and ending of
organism?"  I still think it's a pretty good question.
It IS a good question, but the thing about it that sets off experimentalists and reductionistic scientists is that it seems to be self-contradictory to think of a discrete system, like an organism, in terms of environmental connectedness. Particularly since we take organisms out of their natural (evolutionary) habitat all the time and they do just fine (er, that is... as long as we maintain their particular basic requirements... which refers back to aspects of their environment, doesn't it).
 
The perspective RR offered was one that tied it all together in a scientific manner: He said that organisms incorporate multiple aspects of their evolutionary environment into themselves. He referred to such incorporated aspects as "information" encoded into their organization. There is also information regarding the relation between environment and "self". [In this situation, "self" can refer either to aspects of the individual (organism) or to species aspects (organism as part of a whole species) . One example would be reproductive information of both genders encoded into each individual when the species is bi-gender. This can be seen in things like male deer going into rut at the same time of year that female deer are about to go into estrous.] Collectively, he referred to all of this encoded information as a set of "internal predictive models".
 
What this means is that there are semantic elements to organism that cannot be understood without taking into account knowledge about the referents. In each species, that means evolutionary environment and whole species (interestingly, the chicken-and-egg conundrum disappears when we do so). The aspects of organism structure, behavior, etc which reflect this information will be unfathomable without an understanding of these relational aspects. How do we make sense of gills unless we take into account an environment of water, for instance?
 
So what it boils down to is that you can take the organism out of its environment, but if you want to understand the "why" of things regarding that organism, you have to recognize the fact that you can't take its environment out of IT.
 
Judith
----- Original Message -----
From: David Macy
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] where mind begins and ends

Hey Steve,

    You know it used to be that articles like this would not have phased me.
Now though, that I'm really beginning to appreciate the inseperabilty of
mind and soma (or mind and somas), this kind of thing will probably begin to
irk me.  I was telling Judith once that while speaking with a guy who had a
Ph.D. in philosophy he asked, "where is the beginning and ending of
organism?"  I still think it's a pretty good question.  I mean don't these
guys consult their own cognitive psychologists?   Do you think if you
spanked them they could tell you then where consciousness resides?


David


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Johnson" <***>
To: <***>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: where mind begins and ends


> This is one of those self-congratulatory reductionist
> articles but still I thought is of general interest to
> thie list.
>
> - Steve
>
>
> Sometime in the next decade or so, neuroscientists
> will likely identify the specific neural networks and
> activity that generate the vague but vital thing we
> call consciousness. Delineating the infrastructure of
> awareness is biology's most difficult problem, but a
> leading researcher like Christof Koch, Gerald Edelman,
> or Stanislas Dehaene could soon solve it. Science will
> then possess what might be called a "consciometer"-a
> set of tests (probably an advanced version of a brain
> scan or EEG) that can measure consciousness the way
> kidney or lung function is now measured.
>
> http://www.slate.com/id/2120872/
>
>
>
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