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Re: about Robert Rosen's work

Dear Judith,
I fully sympathize with you. On the one hand you want your father's ideas should have due understanding, appreciation and application to take the science present impasse. There is a core of believing and willing people around you. Now we have reached a stage that we can work as a well-knitted core group based on a healthy blood circulation within our merged super mind who can manage to move beyond outskirts of the analytical world. There starts the realm of analogical world. This is my simple imagining of Rosen's realm by using the method of analogy. Healthy blood circulation will connect us and all healthy food assimilated by the system will maintain its health. We must therefore be careful in what we are sending through our mouth (words) into the system. It starts with our sincere understanding of Rosen's ideas as a blind man description of what the elephant is. It is certainly a living being. We need to lean and learn until something ontological happens inside of our brains by linking the new entries our own experiences and thus understand the fully. Only then we can apply Rosen's ideas to our everyday life and our professional works as our own as the synonyms of those of Rosen's. From there on ideas count not the names anymore.

We need to start leaning from the source and grow together with it. The source should be available to all interested to learn from the source until it becomes a common source for all. Here we need all his writings available. How can I mention Rosen's as Philosophy as my reference without citing his accessible work. I appreciate your effort in this direction. Also I like your offer to make copies to send to people interested in receiving them at a cost of copying and mailing. I will accept this offer.

At the moment I have only "Essays on Life itself". I ordered and am now waiting the "Life itself" from Amazon. I have some bits and pieces from The Bio-Theory Journal. I also ordered a full book of Anticipatory Systems to be searched within the used books market through Amazon.

Now I need the following as photocopies as they are not available to buy.
1. Optimality Principles in Biology;
2. Fundamentals of Measurement and Representation of natural Systems.

If you could make them available to me I'll be happy to pay what is due including air-shipping to Italy. My address:
"Ayten Aydin; Via Laurentina 767;
00143 Rome/italy"

Now on the Bio-theory Journal This is to continue, in spite of the fact that the first issue has never been completed. The next issue should be, in line with John M's suggestion for our concerted efforts in publicizing RR's ideas as a way to go beyond restricted reductionism/analytical thinking, by giving our own understanding of R's thinking, theories and works etc. with or without their application if we are not sure ourselves. But we can always give our own examples as metaphors to trigger peoples' similar thought processes, etc.

I hope I could express myself as I wanted.

When do you think the next issue should come out? The Journal is important and we should keep it going and growing certainly allowing that it will pass through its teething problems.

My best.
Ayten


On May 15, 2005, at 4:19 PM, Judith Rosen wrote:

Hi John M. and list,
 
I share in your frustration over the lack of accessibility to the original work. I agree, wholeheartedly, that the original work is always the best source for those interested in learning more about these ideas. I promise that I am trying to do what I can from my end (with limited resources, energy, and time-- all of which are in demand also for three children (one in college, one in Jr. High School, and one going into Kindergarten who is physically handicapped), husband, home, garden, and, finally, my own professional interests and ambitions-- which come dead last).
 
Regarding "Life, Itself" and "Essays"... I wish I could withdraw the publishing contracts from Columbia University Press, because in my opinion and experience they are absolutely incompetent as a publishing company, and yet they will not release my father's books from their roster (I have asked them, more than once). I would love to sue them to retrieve the publishing rights, but I cannot afford to hire an attorney to even look into whether it would be feasible. Does anyone know an attorney who would be willing to do it, pro bono? Failing that, I would be willing to make photocopies of the book for those who cannot find a copy through various university library loan channels, and will send it in exchange for reimbursement of copying and postage, only (no other fee).
 
Thirdly, you folks still have time to write me papers for the next edition of BioTheory. Consider this an official request for submissions. As you all may have noticed, BioTheory is not a traditional "science journal" and I don't run it in a traditional manner. That is a strength, not a weakness-- as will become apparent, over time. I hereby suggest/request that John M. write up his post as a paper, and I would be happy to print it in the journal. It may be of enormous value to others, down the line.
 
In fact, it would be quite useful, I think, for people in general (and all of those on the list, in particular!!!) to articulate (for themselves and for me, if not for the list) which aspects of Robert Rosen's ideas they feel they are weak in their understanding on. Where are the holes in your various mental tapestries on Rosennean Complexity? What doesn't make sense to you? This is the kind of thing I actually can help people with, but I rarely have people come to me with something that concrete. It's usually a vague: "I think he's on the right track but..." or "On page somethingorother, the math seems to be incorrect...".
 
As I've mentioned before on this list...  it isn't necessary to "do" the math: That's not where the ideas are. It has always turned out that the math is correct, but the math isn't what he was talking about. The math didn't generate the ideas. My father used mathematics as a second language to illustrate and further describe the ideas, to bullet-proof the ideas, and to show that the ideas do, indeed, transfer to other applications besides biology. You might be surprised how many people think they need to learn category theory in order to read Robert Rosen's books and it just ain't so.
 
Regarding the notion of a study companion/compendium of terms, etc: I'm working on that, as time and energy allow. It's in progress, already. I will put some of it into BioTheory's next issue, and hope to get some feedback from people about what else needs to be included. This is also along the same lines as my question; "What doesn't make sense to you, so far, in reading Robert Rosen's work?" I confess that I would love to spend a lot more time on this kind of project, but my working time is always under assault by the myriad practicalities of life!
 
I have come to the conclusion that the only reason my father was able to concentrate on his work and still have a family at all was due entirely to the fact that he had a practical wife. (I think I need one, too... but it's not going to happen!) I believe my father's health began to fail much more quickly once he and my mother separated, and she was no longer attending to all the details. He was no good at practical details. He ignored them whenever possible and when one is a diabetic, one really can't do that without terrible consequences. One also cannot ignore all practical details when one is a wife and mother, which is my situation, and I'm only good at managing the details in comparison to my father. But details really eat up far too much of my time and I resent it. If anyone has any useful suggestions for how to manage the practical details of life and still get good work done, I'm all ears.
 
So, the bottom line is that there are many working projects underway, but speed isn't really a main priority. Accuracy is. The only thing that could speed up the process/es would be better funding. Again; if anyone wants to contribute, I'm happy to discuss the situation in greater depth. I'd dearly love to hire someone to take some of these practicalities/details of daily life off my hands so I could spend more of my time working on these projects. I could also use some serious help in sorting/cataloguing my father's mountainous reference library.
 
Judith Rosen
 
BioTheory: An E-Journal of General Science in the Rosennean Complexity Paradigm http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/RobertRosen/BioTheoryLaunch.htm
Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/

<x-tad-bigger>----- Original Message -----</x-tad-bigger>
<x-tad-bigger>From:</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger>John M</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger>
<x-tad-bigger>To:</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger>***</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> </x-tad-bigger>
<x-tad-bigger>Sent:</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> Saturday, May 14, 2005 3:38 PM</x-tad-bigger>
<x-tad-bigger>Subject:</x-tad-bigger><x-tad-bigger> [ROSEN] about Robert Rosen's work</x-tad-bigger>

Dear "Rosen list" and others to whom I send copies of this writing directly,
 
I took a look at WEB search engines for "Rosen, Robert"
(nothing turned out), then for "Robert Rosen" and I found in MSN etc. search some  ridiculously poor referencing:
-------------------------------------
(book) Available: Life Itself
 (Robert Rosen argues that such a view is neither necessary nor sufficient to answer the question. He asserts ... (end) ---------
*
Rosen - Complexity and Life... lesson to be learned from biology is that there are lessons to be learned from biology."  - (Robert Rosen, Essays on Life Itself   "I do not accept a priori subjective conditions, imposed in ...  (end)------------
*
www.panmere.com/rosen   (on the side, no comment)
*
Rosen - Complexity and Life
... lesson to be learned from biology is that there are lessons to be learned from biology."  - Robert Rosen, Essays on Life Itself   "I do not accept a priori subjective conditions, imposed in ... (end)
*
Rosen Enterprises - Juith Rosen, with article "Biotech..."
*
Tim's list name, plus archives
*
VCU Complexity Research Group,- The list plus archives
 ROBERT ROSEN: THE WELL POSED QUESTION AND ITS ANSWER- WHY ARE ORGANISMS DIFFERENT FROM MACHINES?   -  Donald C. Mikulecky
*
(and a lot of other unrelated 'Rosens' and 'Roberts').
 
Another search for refernces brough a mess of articles, with citation #s of unknown content..
 
Friends around the world would like to know what (who) I am talking about and I don't feel competent to 'teach' Rosen, it would be "Rosen according to Mikes", so those who already heard the name tried the WEB - not very successfully.
 
Tim's website seems to be the only 'comprehensive' one  - but it is not comprehensible for people who don't know already what he refers to. Don has some good articles on select chapters, they did not show up in the search.
 
Some time ago I made a rejected appeal for a renewed composition of a glossary of the Rosen-terms. Now I come with another idea: somebody well published in the factual scientific literature (which means the routine, how to write for scientists) should compose an article on RR's results  -
focussed on the "new" (RR-complexity, impredicativity, non computable totality, etc.) ideas rather than on his argumentative writinsgs for the conservative scientist auditorium.
 
Here, on this list, and I think elsewhere as well, we are bugged down with 'RR arguing with terms of the reductionst sciences' mostly using those terms. We never get to even 'think' by his thoughts on - what I call - wholeness aspects. Model biology, model physics, modelled with mathematical aspects, model-qualia of models, restricted views of topically boudaried thinking is going on. Of course he spent an overwhelming time of his efforts in such argumentation, but "Rosenism" in my views (I hope) is "the other side". Beyond the MR (in both senses).
 
We have quite a few good heads on this list and beyond who could be addressed to compose such a work - maybe more than just one author and not necessarily alone? - and we all could help in finding an able, willing publishing avenue. One that comes on Google et al. besides being a reputable - available - hard-copy sci. magazine.
 
I am afraid that RR gets lost in the sidelines-activity presently going on. Those who knew him get old (not me, I was old before I got to know about him) and young theoreticians ask: Robert who?
We need better scientific PR in understandable terms, followable arguments, clearly written so as the profanum vulgus (=scientists) may understand it as well. (Hard job!).
 
Cordially
 
John Mikes