Re: Quiet list...

[Arno Goudsmit <***>]

I find John's comparison to a class of religious education or study quite appropriate.
Arno


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kineman" <***>
To: ***
Subject: Re: Quiet list...
Date:         Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:01:22 -0600

> 
> Tim & List,
> 
> Having been away from the forum for a while I missed whatever transpired to lead to 
> Howard's 
> banishment. I probably won't read back to find out, as details probably don't matter. I 
> would 
> like to say that although I disagreed with Howard on several levels, I greatly 
> respected his 
> knowledge and experience. There are limits to when a challenge to ideas is healthy and 
> when it 
> is not, however, and I'm sure this was the critical factor. That boundary must always 
> be 
> determined by the purpose and structure of the forum, as Tim says. It is not a matter 
> of who's 
> right or wrong, or even a matter - unless abuse passes all tolerable limits - of 
> behavior and 
> communication style, which as we know can be rough in the sciences (and elsewhere!). It 
> is 
> simply a matter of the context in which we agree to participate. I had to make a 
> similar 
> difficult decision years ago regarding a course we were teaching at Unity Church (yes, 
> I do have 
> that side - its a complement to my science not a conflict). What we were doing in the 
> class was 
> learning how to be better people. Another group from Wisconsin showed up and were 
> presenting 
> themselves as the ones who were really practicing the principles we were teaching - and 
> to all 
> appearances they were. Except that they said we weren't. They flowed with peace and 
> understanding, but said we were just lost souls intellectualizing the issues and we 
> should 
> follow them. They were there to help us find the light they saw - like missionaries. 
> Our own 
> study would not allow us to deny their claim, or their reported experience. Nor could 
> we deny 
> that we were seeking something similar called peace of mind. They pointed out that 
> keeping them 
> out of our class violated our own principles and teachings of love and acceptance. I 
> gave them 
> the boot  without any feelings of guilt, and without equivocation. The reason: Our 
> course wasn't 
> intended to be the kingdom itself, it was a course for people learning. It was a form 
> of study 
> and practice, it was not the goal of that practice. The goal resides in each 
> individual, not the 
> communal form of seeking it. The appropriateness of participation had to do with 
> accepting the 
> form we all agreed to pursue - an entirely worldly matter - and it really had nothing 
> to do with 
> what we believed in common, which we are each free to choose for ourselves. Maybe this 
> parallel, 
> purely as an example of learning structures, is analogous in some way.
> 
> I will miss Howard's mind on this list, but I agree with the decision on the basis of 
> what the 
> forum is about and its structure, and Tim's responsibility to maintain that..
> 
> John
> 
> Tim Gwinn wrote:
> 
> > Jerry,
> >
> > As you well know, I permanently banned Howard Pattee from this list for his
> > conduct. I am also not interested in having anyone on the list be a conduit
> > for Pattee or his agenda.
> >
> > Whatever ideas of your own you wish to present is another matter entirely.
> >
> > I remind everyone once again that the list is intended for those who are
> > interested in furthering the existing work of Rosen and Rosennean
> > complexity. That of course means that the list members have already
> > concluded for themselves that the Rosennean paradigm is appropriate and
> > valid as far as it goes.
> >
> > The internet is a large place. There are other plenty of other places to
> > discuss alternate theories or paradigms. This list is but one little corner
> > of cyberspace and it is reserved for a specific area of content.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of Jerry
> >> Zhu
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:02 PM
> >> To: ***
> >> Subject: Re: Quiet list...
> >>
> >>
> >> I will contact Pattee but am not sure if this list is
> >> interested in seeing what I say and what Pattee say.
> >>
> >> Jerry Zhu
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
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