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Re: Quiet list...

Tim & List,

Having been away from the forum for a while I missed whatever transpired to lead to Howard's banishment. I probably won't read back to find out, as details probably don't matter. I would like to say that although I disagreed with Howard on several levels, I greatly respected his knowledge and experience. There are limits to when a challenge to ideas is healthy and when it is not, however, and I'm sure this was the critical factor. That boundary must always be determined by the purpose and structure of the forum, as Tim says. It is not a matter of who's right or wrong, or even a matter - unless abuse passes all tolerable limits - of behavior and communication style, which as we know can be rough in the sciences (and elsewhere!). It is simply a matter of the context in which we agree to participate. I had to make a similar difficult decision years ago regarding a course we were teaching at Unity Church (yes, I do have that side - its a complement to my science not a conflict). What we were doing in the class was learning how to be better people. Another group from Wisconsin showed up and were presenting themselves as the ones who were really practicing the principles we were teaching - and to all appearances they were. Except that they said we weren't. They flowed with peace and understanding, but said we were just lost souls intellectualizing the issues and we should follow them. They were there to help us find the light they saw - like missionaries. Our own study would not allow us to deny their claim, or their reported experience. Nor could we deny that we were seeking something similar called peace of mind. They pointed out that keeping them out of our class violated our own principles and teachings of love and acceptance. I gave them the boot without any feelings of guilt, and without equivocation. The reason: Our course wasn't intended to be the kingdom itself, it was a course for people learning. It was a form of study and practice, it was not the goal of that practice. The goal resides in each individual, not the communal form of seeking it. The appropriateness of participation had to do with accepting the form we all agreed to pursue - an entirely worldly matter - and it really had nothing to do with what we believed in common, which we are each free to choose for ourselves. Maybe this parallel, purely as an example of learning structures, is analogous in some way.

I will miss Howard's mind on this list, but I agree with the decision on the basis of what the forum is about and its structure, and Tim's responsibility to maintain that..

John

Tim Gwinn wrote:

Jerry,

As you well know, I permanently banned Howard Pattee from this list for his
conduct. I am also not interested in having anyone on the list be a conduit
for Pattee or his agenda.

Whatever ideas of your own you wish to present is another matter entirely.

I remind everyone once again that the list is intended for those who are
interested in furthering the existing work of Rosen and Rosennean
complexity. That of course means that the list members have already
concluded for themselves that the Rosennean paradigm is appropriate and
valid as far as it goes.

The internet is a large place. There are other plenty of other places to
discuss alternate theories or paradigms. This list is but one little corner
of cyberspace and it is reserved for a specific area of content.

Regards,
Tim



-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of Jerry
Zhu
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:02 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Quiet list...


I will contact Pattee but am not sure if this list is
interested in seeing what I say and what Pattee say.

Jerry Zhu

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