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Re: Theoretical vs Experimental science



JR:What does "indicate" mean, if not to give "hints, clues, and suggestions"?
 
TG:The phrase was "reliably indicate". I don't consider hints, clues and suggestions to possible causal underpinnings as being things which are therefore reliable indicators of the actual causal underpinnings. We probably just differ on what 'reliable' conveys here. I generally agree with the rest of your post.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:09 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Theoretical vs Experimental science

Tim,
 
We seem to be going around and around. For example, your comment:
Tim Gwinn wrote: I agree that behaviors are utilized as observables in science - of course they are. However, they are not reliable indicators of cause; behaviors give hints, clues and suggestions as to possible causal underpinnings, but they do not reliably indicate them.
 
What does "indicate" mean, if not to give "hints, clues, and suggestions"? The only time behaviors are not reliable indicators of underlying causes is in the case of artificially contrived systems such as simulacra. That is my whole point: It seemed to me that you were representing my father as saying something was a general truth when he was only saying it was true in analysis of bio-mimetic simulations.
 
In dealing with natural systems, analysis of system behaviors to try to learn about the causal basis for those behaviors is the essence of science as he viewed it. But, once again: We are not just interested in the direct "causes" of these particular "effects" as we observed them at that moment, we are interested in learning about the underlying causal entailment relations which both allowed and generated this system's ability to behave that way. If a dog barks, that's a little piece of causality in the universe. We can look at causes, which can take a variety of guises. For instance; the dog barked because it heard noises that triggered an instinctive response. Or; the dog barked because of the interaction of it's breathing with its vocal cords. Or; the dog barked because of the physical forces of vocal cord vibration creating sound waves of a certain frequency that human ears are capable of perceiving, and blah, blah, blah.........
 
But why do dogs bark? What are the entailments? This is a more general question which is not connected to the particular situation, as causality is. Causes and effects are bound in time and are particular to a specific system and environment. That's the only way to really approach them; reductionistically. Frozen moments, frozen observations, fractured pieces of activity in the universe. Thus, causality piques our curiosity, generates our questions, becomes a tool for investigation of these mysteries, and a means by which to check our theoretical answers. But it doesn't give us a very comprehensive understanding of how the universe works and why it is the way it is. We need to know the causes of the causes. Ultimately, that means we need to know the underlying entailments.
 
Perhaps some additional examples might be helpful. Let's say we want to learn about why a cuttlefish is able to change its external color at will and mimic the hue and pattern of its surroundings as it travels around its natural habitat... The direct causes of this behavior (chromatophores in the skin, which create and/or accumulate different pigments stored in separate pigment sacs, which can expand and contract via voluntary muscular contraction of these pigment sacs, etc, etc) will give us some idea of why this organism is able to achieve this feat. But that kind of information is very limited in comparison with the entailments which underlie it. Entailments are far more comprehensive than "causes".
 
If we want to understand why human bodies have the organ called an appendix, when it seemingly serves no functional purpose, what shall we do? The direct causes, and even the indirect causes (genetics, embryonic development, cell differentiation, formation of the digestive system, including this organ we call an appendix) don't answer our question. What we need are the original entailments for that organ. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't entailed. If we analyze the human appendix via Aristotle's system, what does the analysis tell us? 
 
In fact, this kind of exercise can be very useful because it sheds light on what kind of contextual information is encoded into living system organization, how it's encoded, what happens when the original contextual influences (which entailed the encoding of that information) have changed, etc.
 
I think it's also instructive to pin down how Aristotle's four categories of "causation", which Robert Rosen said are actually categories of entailment, differ from analysis of direct cause-and-effect types of analysis. There's a gray area in there, somewhere, it seems to me, where the two diverge, but they do diverge. Experimental science deals mainly with causes and effects, for example. That's the province of empirics. There is so much more going on than just what we see/observe. Indeed, that's precisely where "causality" is limited.
 
Judith