Re: Causality vs Entailment

[Steve Johnson <***>]

As I mentioned many times here I think RR uses the
word entailment in a couple of different ways. When he
says "causal entailments" he usually refers to a "a
certain relationsips between events". It is in this
sense that he talks about two types of entailments:
causal and inferential. Causal entailments are certain
relationship between observables of events and
inferential entailments are certain relationships
between propositions.

However, in many other cases he talks of entailments
as potential hidden within system. This sense of
entailment is similar to the way he sometimes uses the
phrase "causal bases". In ELI Chapter on Mimesis he
remarks that the causal bases of a mimic are not
equivalent to the causal bases of the system that it
mimicks. As far as I can tell in this sense the
entailment means the entailment among the parts of the
system that gives rise to "new parts", new functional
components that have their own behavioral
manifestations.

I think this sense is most strongly felt when he
discusses why a computer simulation can never be
identical with the "real thing". He says it is because
the entailments of the natural system are not present
in the simulation. In this context it does not make
sense to interpret entailment in the same way as
"relationship between observables of events".

I'm quoting from memory so I apologize in advance if I
misinterpreted anything.


- Steve


 



--- Tim Gwinn <***> wrote:
> 
> JR:Yes: All entailments in the external world ARE
> "causal" entailments--All
> entailments which exist in formalisms are
> "inferential" entailments.
> 
> TG: Ok, we are in agreement here.
> 
> JR:"Causality" refers to the partial expression of
> entailments in the
> external world. As such, all causality is a
> temporally bound, limited
> manifestation of the underlying entailment
> relations.
> 
> TG: This is where we disagree, and maybe it is a
> linguistic difference. In
> my view, the term 'causality' encompasses all causal
> entailments, not some
> partial expression of them. Indeed, the "underlying
> entailment relations"
> are still causal entailments and thus are part of
> 'causality'. I read RR's
> work as using the term 'causality' that way.
> 
> Regards,
> Tim
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: ROSEN Forum
> [mailto:*** Behalf Of
> Judith
> Rosen
>   Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 3:08 PM
>   To: ***
>   Subject: Re: Causality vs Entailment
> 
> 
>   Tim, you are still not seeing what I'm trying to
> show you. This is so
> important, I've got to keep trying.
> 
>   Tim Gwinn wrote: I see no passages in his writing
> to indicate that either
> 1) ?causality? refers only to ?what happens?, or 2)
> that there are
> entailments in the external world which are not
> causal entailments.
> 
>   Yes: All entailments in the external world ARE
> "causal" entailments--All
> entailments which exist in formalisms are
> "inferential" entailments.
> 
>   There is one small caveat: It should not be
> inferred that models exist
> only in the human "formal world" of science.
> Anticipatory Systems Theory
> postulates the natural existence of models as part
> of the organization of
> all living systems; models which are used by the
> systems, themselves, for
> the purposes of system guidance/control through
> time. However, even there,
> the entailment in the models would be "inferential
> entailment".
> 
>   "Causality" refers to the partial expression of
> entailments in the
> external world. As such, all causality is a
> temporally bound, limited
> manifestation of the underlying entailment
> relations.
> 
>   Have you ever heard the expression; "You find out
> what someone is really
> like in a crisis."? This is because a crisis will
> demonstrate more of the
> underlying entailments than ordinary circumstances
> will. The manifestations,
> or observables, are "causality". But the entailments
> were there, all along.
> They specify what the causality will be. As such,
> the entailed potential of
> a living system is always greater than the causal
> expression or
> manifestation in terms of observable behavior
> through time.
> 
>   Judith
> 

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