[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Date Index] [Thread Index] [Author Index

Re: Causality vs Entailment



Tim:
sorry. I did not mean to offend you at all. You 'sharpened' the meaning of my _expression_. Anyway: I learned a new word (peeved) what I could look up in my dictionary.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Causality vs Entailment

JohnM,
 
JM: So please, try to clear your mind and reconsider some examples in this sense which may not be totally identical to the position of the steady longtime Rosen-students.
 
TG: I have to say I get peeved when you suggest here that I seek my positions based on its alignment with "the position of the steady longtime Rosen-students". Nothing could be further from the truth. If I hold to a position, it is because there is for me a persuasive and rational argument behind it. When I cite page numbers, it is not to just find words that sound sorta like what I am saying; it is instead to provide references for those who care to research or question my statements, both on this list and those who may read the archived messages years from now, rather than reiterate some entire argument in a post.
 
If I happen to find Rosen's arguments persuasive and rational that does not make me "orthodox" anymore than it makes anyone with different ideas a "heretic". Those labels are, in my opinion, simply red herrings; they skirt the real issue at hand, which is the nature of the arguments supporting each position.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:51 AM
To: ***
Subject: Causality vs Entailment

Tim, this is an 'entailment' to our yesterday's entailment posts. I will explain, why.
 
I concluded (surprize!) that if insecure of a meaning, I will take a look at MY dictionary (Webster and Am. Heritage), where the latter only lists 'to entail' and both as: to have, secure necessitate a (prescribed) succession (as in a will: inheritance), - a consequence, - the Middle English word refers only to property-succession. I had to conclude that my "tail-end" view was acceptable. 
As to RR's preferred usage, I find it in a closer relationship with the 'anticipation' concept (as in "what has to - or may follow) than with the 'causality' which includes the (cause!) origination as well. So (my very personal (odd?) paraphrasing): if there is a(ny) 'situation', it may "anticipate" an "entailment".
 
Now you may find this very heretic. However, what I learned about RR, the man, - he was an open-minded researcher who would not excommunicate someone for a "heretic" idea. Unfortunately we cannot rely on his opinion to newly emerging questions, only on his written texts, which were topically formulated for certain points to make.
 
I hope to have a chance to study his unfinished last notes.
Without the bias 'how they relate to earlier published material'. I hope to get a glimps of the 'not yet' published.
 
A remark on 'heresy': If one studies a 'heavy' text intensely and repeatedly, one draws up a mental image and it is very hard to overcome it. (Sort of forming a belief system).  Similarly, a constant discussion partner of someone in the process of formulating ideas may not necessarily get, or remember the final versions - which are mostly subject to a painful agony in the process of a final writing formulation. It was only Zeuss, from who's head Athenae popped out in total weaponry and Tesla, from who's head complete electrical curcuit-designs popped out. (the latter maybe still after many re-formulations? - no argument with Zeuss).
So please, try to clear your mind and reconsider some examples in this sense which may not be totally identical to the position of the steady longtime Rosen-students.
 
I repeat my main point: causality is a model-based relation of both the originating and resulting ends, emphasis on the former, entailment is the happening as resulted from unlimited situations. (I wouldn't argue against application of it to model-situations either, however it would convolute a clear-cut understanding).
(Keywords: attractor, anticipation, bifurcation, emergence, change/process).
Have a good one
 
JohnM