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Re: Causality vs. Entailment



Tim, you spoil me. I will copy out (extrapose?) some excerpts for my comments, the total is readable in the archives....(to put it in context).
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: Causality vs. Entailment

JohnM,
See interposed.
Regards,
Tim
 
I Start with 2 quotes:
TG: For me, 'entailment' indicates the whole relation, not just the "consequential termination".
(May I correct my word I used ("start(up)") into: origination? I hope that eliminates the time-wise or other sequencing notion)
"...I see entailments as required to be embedded in a realm of either causal or inferential relations. ..."
 
Embedded?
Firstly I fail to realize "causal" vs. "inferential" difference. Cause makes inference, inferential is caused. I feel an artificial game with words. No matter that we are used to it.
You give two perfectly reductionist model-examples (vectors and the "underlying realm") which is OK, but we want to expand beyond our set model-boundaries into totality.
Would you (could you) identify "natural vectors" or unlimited necessity - both without the modeling limitations? Remember: expanding from the 'map' into the 'territory' is only a widening out just into a wider model. Still not the 'maximum one'.
 
Secondly: if you call "relations" (I simplified your expressions) as "entailment", why don't you just call them "relations" ? does the fancy word 'entailment' add meaning to 'relation'?
if yes, why the identity? Can you describe the 'difference' as other than causal and necessity?
 
"...'causality' is the set of necessary relations which occur in the external world."
What would you deem "unnecessary" in the natural world? There is a 'set' of necessary conditions only for a model to occur. Our select 'goals' don't identify the natural process.
Then again "external world"?  you probably mean 'ambience' which includes ourselves, especially if considering 2-way affecting. (In some posts I, too, was negligeant in this).
 
 "the ambience is not entirely arbitrary or whimsical; there are relations (e.g., causal relations) manifest in the world of phenomena)" [LI p. 58].
Is your quote not edited? I would rather read "entirely not" for the 'not entirely'. Are these
(ambience related, ie. wholistic) 'causal relations' - as we spoke here:  'entailment  -relations'? unless the 2 words are interchangeable. Did RR differentiate between them? The "e.g." allows for both versions.
The "world of phenomena" refers to our observational model, separating the stuff within
our epistemicly so far disclosed knowledge-base from the still undiscovered. Unless you read into 'phenomena' the (so far) unobserved as well. You see. every word implies some mental direction, we have to agree on the meanings to have a mutual plattform. Think of HP who explained some words differently. I don't hold "my way" as the truth, I'll change it whenever I get a "better way" - not in form of a personal opinion, but logically (acceptably for me) supported.
 
It is so easy to use multi-meaning words into long sentences to press a point. I think with much less time and effort spent so far on wordly misunderstandings (and aggrevations) we could have already compose a RR-glossary to clear the meanings at least for ourselves.
 
I was so glad to detect and settle in my mind "entailment" as consequence, (not restricted to modeling limitations) and now I see a lot of complications into it.
 
Thanks for replying
 
John