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Re: Reductionist model



JohnM,
 
Yes, the details are not objected to. Both remarks about the pejorative and positive aspects of models struck me as spot on. I think it is in sync with Rosen's remarks about the "basic though fateful step for science" in the quote reposted below:
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:35 PM
To: ***
Subject: The Second basic dualism...

To continue with some fundamental descriptions, on page 41 of "Life, Itself":
 
Robert Rosen wrote: "Our first basic dualism has separated the universe into a self and its ambience. For each of us, this separation is absolute, indubitable, and unequivocal, though it may be different for different selves. Our second basic dualism concerns the way we partition our ambiences, the way we manage our perceptions of the external world.
 
At this level, we have no universal principles to guide us, nothing given to us, like the distinction between the inner world of the self and the outer world, what we called the ambience. It rests rather on a consensus imputed to the ambience, rather than on some objective and directly perceptible property of the ambience. It is the dualism between systems and their environments.
 
Roughly speaking, a system in the ambience is a collection of percepts that seem to us to belong together. It would be hard to imagine a less precise definition of anything, but that is inherent in the very idea of system. The abstract concept of systemhood is indeed a very difficult one to grapple with, as is the related notion of set-ness. It is at the same time familiar in the concrete garb of everyday experience and alien when we attempt to characterize it in isolation, as a thing in itself, apart from any specific material embodiment.
 
Indeed, in mathematics, set-ness is such a basic and familiar notion that it took two thousand years for it to be recognized explicitly; even then, it took a strange mind (as contemporaries reported Cantor was) to see it and to deal with it. Once it was pointed out, and its central role in mathematical thought made explicit, then everyone saw it. Indeed, within a generation, and in the teeth of paradoxes it had already spawned, David Hilbert was saying, "From the paradise created for us by Cantor, let no man drive us forth."
 
The notion of system-hood is at that same level of generality and plays the same kind of role in our management of the ambience. As noted it segregates things that "belong together" from those that do not, at least from the subjective perspective of a specific self, a specific observer. These things that belong together, and whatever else depends on them alone, are segregated into a single bag called SYSTEM; whatever lies outside, like the complement of a set, constitutes ENVIRONMENT.
 
The partition of ambience into system and environment, and even more, the imputation of that partition to the ambience itself as an inherent property thereof, is a basic though fateful step for science. For once the distinction is made, attention focuses on system. Systems and environment are thenceforth perceived in entirely different ways, represented and described in fundamentally different terms. To anticipate somewhat, system gets described by "states", which are determined by observation; environment is characterized rather by its effects on system. Indeed it is precisely at this point that, as we shall see, fundamental trouble begins to creep in; already here.
 
The growth of science, as a tool for dealing with the ambience, can be seen as a search for special classes of systems into which the ambience may be partitioned, such that (1) the systems in that special class are more directly apprehensible than others, and (2) everything in the ambience, any other way of partitioning it into systems, is generated by, or reducible to, what happens in that fundamental class. Newtonian mechanics, for instance, thought it had found such a class; so, today does quantum theory. But it is, above all, a special class, embodying an equally special way of coping with the system-environment dualism itself. Whether this is enough is, at root, the basic question."
 
Regards,
Tim
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 3:07 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Reductionist model

Tim,
thanx for the note. I take it from the ubiquitous silence (as experienced to many of my notes to this list about model- and redux-related topics) about the details I wrote that they are not objected to. Which gives me a big relief. I use common sense and my own understanding. I want to better understand RR, but that does not mean any planned conversion of mind, only a consider-able maybe.
*
BTW your other post (explanatory to the list):
Consider accepting some (not hostile, but scientifically well crafted) disagreements to RR-ideas as well. Here, the listers, well versed in Rosenism would know how to address those, better than let them just harangue in places where many did not even hear the RR name.
*
Third (to reduce your cost<G>):
I agree with Arno, I did not find 'that kind' hostility in Pattee's writings either. But, I didn't have the background and the sensitivity for such either (like eg. Judith).
 
John M
----- Original Message -----