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Re: Rosennean "Cookbook"



Tim,
I think you get what I'm asking.
Regarding Barry Smith, I've corresponded with him. I think he's close, that he knows he is close, and there remains more work to do. But, I think he's on the right path, meat on the bones or not. As he says, his clientelle isn't ready for full-monty category-theoretic analytics yet. I think a cookbook would help in that regard.


Jack

Tim Gwinn wrote:

Jack,

JP:

Yabut...

I don't want to sound like a complainer, but, dammit Tim, this field is
*never* going to mature to the point of the kind of toolkit of
approaches I asked for unless some people who have used it begin to
explain how they used it. Right now, this list is focussing on the
nity-grity of this or that aspect of some or other detail of this or
that facet of ..., and few contributors, if any, are suggesting, per
your own request, how the sayings of Doctor Rosen apply to this or
that... (sorry for the outburst -- my keyboard made me do it).



TG: I hear ya. I think part of the reason is that this list serves multiple purposes, and not just the creative and technical generation of mathematical models. A list with a tighter focus specifically on explicit modelling methods for Rosennean complex systems would be nice to have, but I am not sure there is yet a critical mass of people for that. Maybe there is...it'd be very interesting if there were. I imagine there is probably also some hesitations with discussing techniques which someone understandably wants to retain as "their own" for professional publication. That means that most of the explanation of previous modelling uses will have to come from reading books or papers previously written by others. I had already emailed Aloisius, for example, to see if it is possible for him to provide those earlier papers that he referenced.



I fully agree that the threads on this list are enormously valuable. At
the same time, I salute your quest to have contributors tie the science
they discuss to relational modeling.

Consider this. Google mereotopology.  I don't know what you get when you
scan the hits there, but I get that the remnants of the AI camp, those
who use ontologies to model various universes of discourse, are creeping
in the back door to relational modeling.  Barry Smith, one of the prime
contributors to that literature, is applying the edges of relational
modeling to medical informatics. To what extent can that literature
serve as a kind of "tie that binds" Rosennean thinking to existing
practicioners in parallel fields?



TG: I looked at several of Barry Smith's papers (see: http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/). I dunno - I just don't see much meat on all those bones. There's alot of talk in them about how wholes are made up of parts, and parts have boundaries....but I see no productive models arising from that. Maybe others will prove me wrong.



Consider this. You have a small tribe right here. To what extent can the
interactions and other relations associated with this tribe be modeled
with Rosennean thinking?  Articulate a recipe for doing that and you've
got an enormously useful first cut at a cookbook.



TG: What relations and what interactions specifically? Or to put it another way, what are the observables of interest? Oops, I just saw you reply to Judith about this paragraph....I'll respond on that filament of this thread.

Regards,
Tim