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Re: The Quest for Scientific Objectivity



Howard Pattee wrote: Obviously, human knowledge of Nature originates with human perceptions.
Obviously, all human knowledge depends on human experience. But there is no
logic that says that human perceptions and experience can't discover
properties of Nature over which humans have no influence, and there is
plenty of experimental evidence that such properties exist.
I actually agree with this, 100%. I wasn't arguing an opposing view to this sentiment.
 
What I was arguing was that objectivity is relative. Science doesn't exist outside of human minds, so it strikes me as rather silly for science to try to divorce ourselves from ourselves in some vain and futile attempt to achieve complete scientific "objectivity". I think we can only be more objective or less objective, but not totally objective-- because there is no way for us to be anything other than human.
 
Trying to be more objective is an interesting conundrum... for instance, how do we KNOW if we are being "more" objective? There is always a danger, and I think science has been living in the danger zone for a long time now, that our efforts to be totally objective are actually creating and injecting more artifactual crap masquerading as information into our attempts to learn about the universe and ourselves.
 
Part of he reason Aristotle's fourth category of causation (Final Causation) and all notions of function or need/requirement are anathema to physics is because of a fear that it imputes a human value system on some non-human system. That may occasionally be a justified fear... but it may also be true that the reason humans recognize the concept of function in other organisms ("biological systems") is because, as organisms, we are very well acquainted with functional entailments ourselves. It's built in.
 
I was making the point in support of my father's position that notions of function are not anthropomorphisms. These ideas are, he said, perfectly scientific and can be "rigorously" studied via science. His view was that "objectivity" is not the holy grail of science; knowledge is. And he felt you can achieve knowledge while using objectivity in moderation.
 
There was a James Thurber story he used to quote, from "Fables For Our Times"... In it, a bear who was a raging alcoholic finally gives in to his family's entreaties and stops drinking. In fact, he starts exercising and eating health food and is so energized by how good he feels that he begins to proselytize to everyone about the benefits of healthy living... and gets so into his new addiction that he's just as bad off as when he was drinking. The moral of the story was "It is just as bad to fall flat on your face as it is to bend over too far backward." I think science equates a lack of objectivity with falling on its face, but... in its drive for complete objectivity, it's been bending over too far backward. In short; it's not good to become too unbalanced.
 
Judith

----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Inequivalence of models

Judith,

Your response, "Sure I can,"  does not alter the truth of my statement:

>You will not find it possible to
>explain these values [of Nature's constants] as mere human mental creations.


Let me ask it another way: Do you think you can in any imaginable way alter
or "taint" the speed of light or the charge of an electron? I might add
that historically great physicists and philosophers have tried to imagine
alternatives and failed.

Howard