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Re: Inequivalence of models



Dear Judith,
 
I believe we are in perfect agreement (you believe it or not) all the way to your last par below. The 'system-hood' you call a relational property, is in my used words: a system is a model. The target of "being observed". You asked about "my point". - I try...
 
Science (in my wording: reduced to topical views of our ever changing epistemic enrichment process) - as anything else (!) cannot be 'objective' because anything we may know is absorbed - and only that - by the mind and interpreted into our understanding (if...).  So ALL objective knowledge is subjective and since it is interpreted: also virtual. I had long (and not unsuccessful) discussions on that (objective reality = subjective virtuality) on lists for more than a decade, with international professional opponents in psych, consciousness, philosophy, neurology, physics, mystics, etc. We have NO (other) WAY to access 'reality' that is "out there", than through consious learning and don't forget" our mind is also part of the "out there".
(In this process even the 'fundamental' physical constants ARE the consequences of our long-long mental process within the fantastic evolving edifice of 'reductionistic' science what I do NOT use pejoratively, rather as a differentiation from the wholistic view). 
 
I also concur that 'theory' is speculation (mostly mathematically aided). Science "can do better" in allowing wider connotations into the topical cuts and drawing conclusions in a wider horizon than restricted so far by the quantized models cut to size as they may  compare by the "applied math" equations. This is a philosophical aspect, it would hurt the practical resultfulness of the reductionistic technological advancement, but would lead to a better understanding of the world we live in. I don't pejoratize philoso[hy either. RR developed a philosophy, you like the word or not. I changed from his 'complexity' because there is so much non-RR type meaning attached to this word (especially: 'complex') that one has to define always.
Wholeness seems less polluted (if I keep it out from holistics).
 
Now let us take a car-ride.
"...Not the organization of the atoms or the molecules or the next larger category of components.... "
because we take the ubiquitous model for granted. With another organization of those molecules (e.g. the Fe would be liquid, etc.) you would not drive. Also in the design of our usual model all the connotations from the (reductionistic) mechanical, electrical, chemical, legal, etc. 'givens' are presumed and cut out from the model we speak about. And in your closing sentence:
 "In a car, that organization is simple: pretty much the sum of its parts."
I would be careful with 'parts': do you really restrict them to the usual material parts, taken from reductionistic cuts? If you call it an organization, it implies all the functions and connotations leading to the "total" - not to the limited model material parts only. (I have problems with 'organization' (I consider also societal, mental etc. beside biological ones) - all are more connected than just fitting into the utilitarian model-selection. My problem is in cutting the limits of interconnections, if ever, so - though starting from a named kernel - it seems unlimited into the wholeness. I am not ready with that. )
 
John M
 
 
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: Inequivalence of models

Hi John M.
 
One thing to always keep in mind is that "system-hood" is, itself, a relational property. It has to do with the relation of the observer to "the system" (meaning"that which is being observed"). This is one of the reasons why science can never be a truly "objective" pursuit-- I would argue that there is no such thing as objectivity in science. By its very nature, "science" is a human mental creation and exercise. However, science is what humanity has developed as a way to aid in learning about ourselves and our world/universe (because we do see both from an innately egocentric perspective). So all of these descriptions are being made from within the context of SCIENCE.
 
My father's work was not philosophy, much as he was accused of that, mostly be experimentalists who considered "theory" to be synonymous with "speculation". So you say that these boundaries of system are artificial? Yeah, they are. All human perception is a mental artifact, in some sense. And your point is??? "Reduction" is not a dirty word, unless it's the only word allowed or it's misapplied to situations where it's inappropriate. If the former is true, it guarantees the latter, doesn't it.
 
What "RR" was saying was that science can do far better than it has been doing, in how it approaches learning about various aspects of our universe.
 
So, having reiterated that, let's look at the issue of the system we call "car".... In order for a car to be a car, what we have to look at is the organization that makes it a car. Not the organization of the atoms or the molecules or the next larger category of components.... the organization of an atom is not what makes a car a car. Similarly, we needn't bother going into ever larger systems, looking at the organization of traffic or of rush hour traffic jams, etc.... that's not the "car" system, either. The main POINT: it is a significant fact that the way some system is organized contributes a causal impact on its behaviors/capabilities. In a car, that organization is simple: pretty much the sum of its parts.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: John M
To: ***
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Inequivalence of models

SNIP