Re: sixth sense (and seventh, eighth, ninth...)

[Jerry Zhu <***>]

Steve,

I guess we agree on that huamn being operates on both
linguistic domain (LinD) and language domain (LanD)
and chimps only on LinD.  I don't thinking that LinD
can penetrate into LanD outside of evolutionary
process. But LanD alter LinD and that changes the
nature of the species.

Regarding autopoietic being conscious.  First we need
to have common understanding what consciousness is. If
you can tell me comprehensively in your understanding
what is consciousness, I can tell mine to reach a
concensus on vocabulary. From there I can tell why all
autopoietic are conscious. Of course we also need to
have concensus on what autopoietic entity is.

Best regards

Jerry Zhu


--- Steve Johnson <***> wrote:

> JZ:
> In
> > contrast, it is possible for the third order
> > autopoiesis the social system to understand itself
> > completely in principle since its components, the
> > organisms, operate in language domain.
> 
> SJ:
> I would say it is possible for a few select
> components
> to understand the whole system but it's impossible
> for
> the society to understand itself. A society may be
> an
> autopoetic unity but it is certainly not conscious.
> I
> don't not see how consciousness and autopoiesis are
> in
> any way equivalent.
> 
> JZ:
> >There
> >are failed experiments to teach chimps to speak
> human
> >language by raising the animals with human
> childern.
> 
> SJ: While it is true that animals do not have the
> "wiring" to vocalize language the way humans do
> there
> have been quite a few successful experiments
> teaching
> chimps sign language. What they show is that chimps
> are capabable with acquiring vocabularies up to a
> few
> hundred words (around the level of 3 yro human) but
> their progress hits insurmountable limitations in
> both
> syntax (they cannot learn grammar) and semantics
> (they
> cannot move beyond first level closures i.e. words
> that have direct referents in their sensory
> environments).
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> --- Jerry Zhu <***> wrote:
> 
> > Judith,
> > 
> > To answer your question immediately, I would say
> > that
> > women will still have long hair only become
> > prettier.
> > This is another example to illustrate that the
> force
> > of evolution is not gradual change thro random
> > mutation under the pressure of natural selection,
> > rather it is life's inherent tendency to create
> > novelty.  I am lazy to provide rational on this at
> > this time for the limition of size of the message
> > and
> > time contraints.
> > 
> > I agree with your life being anticipatory systems
> as
> > you described.  I would add that the unfolding of
> > encoding as well as decoding are different for
> > different orders of autopoiesis. What you
> described
> > about cell differentiation is that of cell.  The
> > world
> > cells bring forth is different from the world the
> > organism bring forth.  For second order
> autopoiesis
> > of
> > animal, the world brought forth is in linguistic
> > domain. for humans it adds the language domain to
> > the
> > world broght forth. (for definitions of linguistic
> > and
> > language domains see M&V's book "the tree of
> > Knowledge") The language domain has penetrated
> into
> > the linguistic domain and reduce the size of
> > operational realm of the linguistic domain.  There
> > are
> > failed experiments to teach chimps to speak human
> > language by raising the animals with human
> childern.
> > 
> > Animals do not have the capacity in their nervous
> > system to operate in language domain.
> > 
> > The mechanizations of the inner space has profound
> > implications for life.  Complex systems increase
> in
> > complexity.  Being composed of physical elements,
> > complex systems saturate at certain point. this
> > explains why life age.  The more "fight" with the
> > context, the more activities the complex system,
> the
> > faster the aging process.  This is evidenced that
> > fast
> > moving animals have short life than slow moving
> > animals.  See how long a turtle can live.  Huamn's
> > life span has steadly increased for the reason
> that
> > the activity of human body to fight with context
> has
> > reduced.  It also explains why althelets usually
> > have
> > shorter life than non althelets.  There is a new
> > book
> > written by German scientists saying that the
> secrete
> > of having a long life is being lazy, the best
> > exercise
> > is to laugh that has not side effect.
> > 
> > The world brought forth by cells is even more
> > fascinating. It is clear evidence that life is
> much
> > less a competitive  struggle for survival than a
> > triumph of cooperation and creativity. Cells, or
> > more
> > appropriate baterias, mechnize their inner world
> > through cooperation of a population of billions. 
> It
> > operates purly in linguistic domain that is
> > incomprehensive by its product, the second order
> > autopoiesis in principle.  We never understand
> > completely the world brough forth thro the
> > cooperation
> > of billions simply because the cells operate in
> > linguistic domain instead of language domain. In
> > contrast, it is possible for the third order
> > autopoiesis the social system to understand itself
> > completely in principle since its components, the
> > organisms, operate in language domain.
> > 
> > Life in its course of evolution has invented
> > tremondous technologies such as photosynthesis,
> > respiration.  Very few are understood, copied, and
> > utilized. It is reported to create a earthquike
> > worning system. I bet it is different technology
> > invented by life emboidied in animals.
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- Judith Rosen <***>
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Jerry Zhu wrote: "I predict five thousand years
> or
> > > more later no men 
> > > has hair."
> > > 
> > > What about women?
> > > 
> > > (Sorry, I couldn't resist!!!)
> > > 
> > > Seriously; I have to say that I think there's
> more
> > > to living 
> > > interaction with self and environment for any
> > > organism than just the 
> > > inner and outer, as you described in your post.
> > > Anticipatory Systems 
> > > Theory posits that living systems possess and
> > > utilize encoded 
> > > information (models) of themselves and their
> > > environment that includes 
> > > aspects of time such that the models generate
> > > predictive conditions 
> > > for what they model, based on present
> conditions,
> > > and this collective 
> > > capability acts as an anticipatory control
> system
> > > within the organism 
> > > as a whole. If that's so, then what's "inner"
> and
> > > what's "outer" 
> > > depends entirely on context.
> > > 
> > > For example, if something were to shift
> > > configuration, the way 
> > > proteins fold or a developing embryo changes its
> > > configuration from a 
> > > hollow ball of cells to the stage that begins
> main
> > > differentiation... 
> > > what's inner and what's outer will not be a
> > > constant. It will also 
> > > depend on where you're looking at it from. Each
> 
=== message truncated ===



                
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