Re: sixth sense (and seventh, eighth, ninth...)

[Steve Johnson <***>]

JZ:
In
> contrast, it is possible for the third order
> autopoiesis the social system to understand itself
> completely in principle since its components, the
> organisms, operate in language domain.

SJ:
I would say it is possible for a few select components
to understand the whole system but it's impossible for
the society to understand itself. A society may be an
autopoetic unity but it is certainly not conscious. I
don't not see how consciousness and autopoiesis are in
any way equivalent.

JZ:
>There
>are failed experiments to teach chimps to speak human
>language by raising the animals with human childern.

SJ: While it is true that animals do not have the
"wiring" to vocalize language the way humans do there
have been quite a few successful experiments teaching
chimps sign language. What they show is that chimps
are capabable with acquiring vocabularies up to a few
hundred words (around the level of 3 yro human) but
their progress hits insurmountable limitations in both
syntax (they cannot learn grammar) and semantics (they
cannot move beyond first level closures i.e. words
that have direct referents in their sensory
environments).


 


--- Jerry Zhu <***> wrote:

> Judith,
> 
> To answer your question immediately, I would say
> that
> women will still have long hair only become
> prettier.
> This is another example to illustrate that the force
> of evolution is not gradual change thro random
> mutation under the pressure of natural selection,
> rather it is life's inherent tendency to create
> novelty.  I am lazy to provide rational on this at
> this time for the limition of size of the message
> and
> time contraints.
> 
> I agree with your life being anticipatory systems as
> you described.  I would add that the unfolding of
> encoding as well as decoding are different for
> different orders of autopoiesis. What you described
> about cell differentiation is that of cell.  The
> world
> cells bring forth is different from the world the
> organism bring forth.  For second order autopoiesis
> of
> animal, the world brought forth is in linguistic
> domain. for humans it adds the language domain to
> the
> world broght forth. (for definitions of linguistic
> and
> language domains see M&V's book "the tree of
> Knowledge") The language domain has penetrated into
> the linguistic domain and reduce the size of
> operational realm of the linguistic domain.  There
> are
> failed experiments to teach chimps to speak human
> language by raising the animals with human childern.
> 
> Animals do not have the capacity in their nervous
> system to operate in language domain.
> 
> The mechanizations of the inner space has profound
> implications for life.  Complex systems increase in
> complexity.  Being composed of physical elements,
> complex systems saturate at certain point. this
> explains why life age.  The more "fight" with the
> context, the more activities the complex system, the
> faster the aging process.  This is evidenced that
> fast
> moving animals have short life than slow moving
> animals.  See how long a turtle can live.  Huamn's
> life span has steadly increased for the reason that
> the activity of human body to fight with context has
> reduced.  It also explains why althelets usually
> have
> shorter life than non althelets.  There is a new
> book
> written by German scientists saying that the secrete
> of having a long life is being lazy, the best
> exercise
> is to laugh that has not side effect.
> 
> The world brought forth by cells is even more
> fascinating. It is clear evidence that life is much
> less a competitive  struggle for survival than a
> triumph of cooperation and creativity. Cells, or
> more
> appropriate baterias, mechnize their inner world
> through cooperation of a population of billions.  It
> operates purly in linguistic domain that is
> incomprehensive by its product, the second order
> autopoiesis in principle.  We never understand
> completely the world brough forth thro the
> cooperation
> of billions simply because the cells operate in
> linguistic domain instead of language domain. In
> contrast, it is possible for the third order
> autopoiesis the social system to understand itself
> completely in principle since its components, the
> organisms, operate in language domain.
> 
> Life in its course of evolution has invented
> tremondous technologies such as photosynthesis,
> respiration.  Very few are understood, copied, and
> utilized. It is reported to create a earthquike
> worning system. I bet it is different technology
> invented by life emboidied in animals.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Judith Rosen <***> wrote:
> 
> > Jerry Zhu wrote: "I predict five thousand years or
> > more later no men 
> > has hair."
> > 
> > What about women?
> > 
> > (Sorry, I couldn't resist!!!)
> > 
> > Seriously; I have to say that I think there's more
> > to living 
> > interaction with self and environment for any
> > organism than just the 
> > inner and outer, as you described in your post.
> > Anticipatory Systems 
> > Theory posits that living systems possess and
> > utilize encoded 
> > information (models) of themselves and their
> > environment that includes 
> > aspects of time such that the models generate
> > predictive conditions 
> > for what they model, based on present conditions,
> > and this collective 
> > capability acts as an anticipatory control system
> > within the organism 
> > as a whole. If that's so, then what's "inner" and
> > what's "outer" 
> > depends entirely on context.
> > 
> > For example, if something were to shift
> > configuration, the way 
> > proteins fold or a developing embryo changes its
> > configuration from a 
> > hollow ball of cells to the stage that begins main
> > differentiation... 
> > what's inner and what's outer will not be a
> > constant. It will also 
> > depend on where you're looking at it from. Each
> has
> > aspects of the 
> > other because it's another one of those "they
> entail
> > each other" 
> > scenarios. In other words, there is no "inner"
> > unless there's "outer".
> > 
> > However, I agree that humanity has become far more
> > dependent on 
> > technological systems of systems of systems which
> we
> > originally 
> > created to augment our natural capabilities, but
> > which are now eroding 
> > those natural abilities. (There's a "side-effect"
> > for you!) If the 
> > trend were to continue at the same rate, we may
> end
> > up replacing our 
> > natural abilities with mechanical substitutes.
> What
> > a scary thought! 
> > Luckily, very little in this world goes as planned
> > or expected. So, 
> > while that's a pain in the ___  and we usually
> > complain about it... it 
> > may end up saving us.
> > 
> > Judith
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Jerry Zhu
> >   To: ***
> >   Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:11 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [ROSEN] sixth sense (and seventh,
> > eighth, ninth...)
> > 
> > 
> >   The world animals bring forth has much richer
> >   interactions with their context.  I characterize
> > the
> >   world of interaction having inner surface and
> > outer
> >   surface.  The inner one is physical one (direct
> > bodily
> >   entanglment with context) such as taking in
> food,
> >   keeping warm, avoiding danger, having fun etc.
> The
> >   outer surface is abstract or intellectual one.
> >   Human's can reach to the Moon which monkeys' can
> > only
> >   reach to trees. The larger the world, the more
> >   mechnized the inner surface, the less struggle
> the
> >   body has to fight with its environment. Human's
> > inner
> >   surface is ever simpler and mechanized.  No need
> > for
> >   fur to keep warm, eat cooked food easy for our
> >   stomach, staying indoor, travel with vhiecles.
> > Animals
> >   have to use their own body to fight with the
> >   environment for all these.  It is no supprise
> that
> >   they can escape the tsunami for their bodily
> >   complexity that human has degenerated.  I
> predict
> > five
> >   thousand years or more later no men has hair.
> 
=== message truncated ===



                
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