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Re: Topic Reminder



Judith,
 
We may have a different idea of "science" in mind. I see nothing unscientific about your father's work at Hutchin's center, which he discusses in the Introduction of AS. For me, science is an approach, an attitude. From AS p. 3:
 
[Rosen quoting Hutchins:] "'The gadgeteers and data collectors, masquerading as scientists, have threatened to become the supreme chieftains of the scholarly world.
 
    As the Renaissance could accuse the Middle Ages of being rich in principles and poor in facts, we are now entitled to enquire whether we are not rich in facts and poor in principles.
 
    Rational thought is the only basis of education and research. Whether we know it or not, it has been responsible for our scientific success; its absence has been responsible for our bewilderment...Facts are the core of an anti-intellectual curriculum.
 
    The scholars in a university which is trying to grapple with fundamentals will, I suggest, devote themselves first of all to a rational analysis of the principles of each subject matter. They will seek to establish general propositions under which the facts they gather  may be subsumed. I repeat, they would not cease to gather facts, but they would know what facts to look for, what they wanted them for, and what to do with them after they got them.'
To such sentiments, one could only say Amen. In my view, Hutchins was here articulating the essence of science, as I understand it." [AS, p.3]
I too agree with such a view of 'science'. My concern is that the subject of policies, moreso than most other subjects, is susceptible to ideological presuppositions, and that discussions on the matters can degenerate easily into merely ideological ones. If we are to avoid falling prey to unchallenged presuppositions, just as we seek to avoid falling prey to Newtonian presuppositions, then our investigations must be of a meticulous nature, such that we eventually find ourselves on firm ground, theoretically and empirically. I would call that ground a scientific ground. 
 
Subject matter such as policies incorporate ideologies, morals, and other aspects outside the purview of science in the above sense. As such, this is not really the appropriate forum for the discussion of those aspects. This is the sense in which I consider other forums appropriate for these topics.
 
However, policies typically also seek justification by asserting arguments from fact and theory. As Rosennean Complexity Theory is about science in the above sense, I see our role here as toward the development and utilization of RCT for scientific investigation. So this would certainly include the investigation of presuppositions and arguments from fact and theory employed in justifications for policies. This what I meant by: "Where they [science and policy] intersect, proposed policies demand as much, if not more, rigor and scrutiny and skepticism as do existing policies. "
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 10:28 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Topic Reminder

Tim,
 
I think there is a danger inherent in limiting what aspects of complexity or applications of complexity you want to "allow" on your list in the manner you've expressed. One of the most fun things about my father, from my point of view, was the way he could see and make valid connections between seemingly diverse, unrelated things. In doing so, I learned a great deal about a wide range of subjects, and developed my own curiosities about many of the subjects he covered, which I may not have ever been exposed to if not for this tendency of his. It was how he looked at the world, which explains some of why he was able to do what he did in science.
 
Secondly, if he had tried to stick to a "purely scientific" milieu, he would have done things very differently. For example, he would have turned down Robert Hutchins' offer to spend a year at the Center For the Study of Democratic Institutions in Santa Barbara, which would have had a major impact on the subsequent development of his work. Going to such a different realm and participating in the problems they were trying to answer had a profound effect on his scientific development, which he discusses at length in his book, "Anticipatory Systems". In fact, he gives that year credit for provoking his major epiphany about the unique integration of multiple aspects of TIME into the organization of living systems.
 
So it would be wise to err on the side of tolerance regarding subject matter. Frankly, I see a great deal of relevancy in any topic where decisions based on a reductionist paradigm are causing serious problems and side effects, or not leading to any real understanding of the systems being addressed. That means global climate, medicine, and even the economic, social, philosophical, psychological, political realms are all going to have relevance when it comes to Rosennean Complexity Theory as a whole. These things are all connected.
 
Judith