[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Date Index] [Thread Index] [Author Index

Re: Anyone up to a Rosennean challenge?



Judith,
 
I've been ruminating about this kind of project. Specifically, I've been working on the role of (to use your terminology) "relational causality" as it applies to the N-body problem. It's been long ago proven ("Brun's Theorem") that there is no way to generally solve the 3-body problem in closed form. That is, it has been shown within the confines of Newtonian paradigm models that it cannot be so solved. However, from within those same confines, it also cannot be shown that organization plays a role, since organization is not encoded in that paradigm and its formalism. 
 
There has not - to my knowledge - been any attempt to approach the problem with another paradigm and formalism(s). Such a demonstration (I'm not sure whether it would rise to the level of a "proof") should describe why the problem is solvable in closed form in only the 1- and 2-body versions, but unsolvable in closed form for N>2. Ideally, it should also show why the 2-body problem is unsolvable in closed form if general relativity is included.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:19 AM
To: ***
Subject: Anyone up to a Rosennean challenge?

Hi Everyone,
 
Over the weekend, I was thinking about the perennial complaint that Robert Rosen didn't make any of the kinds of predictions of the sort that Einstein did, with which to test/verify his theories... And it occurred to me that my father actually DID, in a certain sense... (Can anyone on the list come up with formal ways to prove the following?):
 
One of my father's main tenets was that the physics-based models don't accurately describe even the systems they were created to describe. For example, particulate matter/atomic organization. He said these deficiencies don't show up much when applications are kept to simple systems and relatively "low-level" complex systems like atoms but that when you apply them to global weather or ecosystems or human physiology... the deficiencies become far more obvious. It seems to me it should be possible to prove, via accepted scientific means within physics, that "relational causality" as created and constrained by organization is what has been missing from the models at the basis of physics.
 
In other words, let's look at where the paradoxes are, the anomalies, the inconsistencies, WITHIN PHYSICS, and see if they exist because the models lack a relational approach. It's sort of the same idea as the quantum systems, observation, and time paper by the Iranian Physicist, Dr. A. M. Ghorbanzadeh, that Tim posted on the list a while back:
Tim Gwinn wrote, on 12/01/04: Today I have been reading a fascinating new paper on arXiv quant-ph, entitled "Quantum mechanics as a result of time broadening of the classical object" by A.M. Ghorbanzadeh: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0411169
The essential idea of the paper is that the author has shown mathematically that the equation describing a quantum particle can be put into a form which appears to indicate that the appropriate interpretation of a quantum entity is as being an entity which is extended in time, both into the past and the future.
 
I think it should also be possible to look at so-called "proven" tenets of physics and show where the relational aspect was there all along, but has been ignored or gone unnoticed because it's just accepted. The relational nature of the universe is so familiar that it sort of becomes invisible unless you start trying to create complex systems without using this principle in your attempts.
 
I'm curious to see what you guys can come up with!
 
Slainte,
Judith Rosen