Re: What is Natural Law? chicken and egg processes

[Dan Fiscus <***>]

Howard and all,

Some thoughts on these:

Howard Pattee wrote:

> George Wald said it as concisely as possible: "A physicist is just atoms 
> way of knowing about atoms."

I like this as I think self-reference and loops that start
and end in the environment are important. This choice
of the start and end points fits with your earlier posts
about epistemic cut and separation of self from world,
model from thing modeled, observer from thing
observed with somewhat of an emphasis on the physical
or material as fundamental.

But I also like a complement to Wald's and think we
could just as well say:

Atoms are just physicists' way of knowing about
physicists.

That is, a loop that we could generalize to see as starting
and ending with a self, life form, observer. This could be
more akin to the Hindu or Eastern way of oneness and a
single world self, more of an emphasis on self, life, mind,
etc. as fundamental.

Then if we see or imagine that either choice is OK and
the two choices yield the same results, that whether we
start and end with a self or start and end with an
environment, it doesn't really matter - either way its a
loop, either way we get a self and we get a world, either
way the two are interdepentdent and in reciprocal
relations.

Mario Giampietro has just published a book called
"Multi-scale Integrated Analysis of Agroecosystems". In
this he has a large section on impredicative loop
analysis and he uses the term "chicken and egg
processes". I like this since it is a common language
phrase and easily understandable, at least in English
in the places I am. It seems to me a good "model" for
"self in the world" and that the "which came first?" is not
a well-posed question, nor is "which is more fundamental?"
Instead it seems the two go together ever and always, as
equals, unfractionable and "co-inherent" (term from a
professor of mine).

Dan

PS - Giampietro says this on page 5 of his preface:

"Later on, after learning about hierarchy theory,
postnormal science and complex systems theory (especially
because of the gigantic contributions of Robert Rosen), I
realized that it was possible to back up these intuitions with
a robust theory".

The "intuitions" he refers to in earlier sentences as about
"how to do things in a different way" and "things" refer to
studying agroecosystems and sustainability.