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Re: What is Natural Law?



Hi Steve (and everyone else too, of course),
 
I think I can help answer at least part of this question:
Steve J. wrote:Anyone who can provide a definition of what "Law" is
for the purpose of present discussion?
 
I posted an excerpt from "Life, Itself" that discusses Robert Rosen's concept of Natural Law. He was describing, in that excerpt, how the very fact that we are discussing phenomena in the ambience (and arguing about what constitutes proof that we have figured out various real consistencies in the ambience) means that certain things have to be true. The fact that those things have to be true in order for us to be discussing and modeling it is an embodiment of this truth: There are consistent principles underlying phenomena we perceive in "the ambience" and these principles echo over and over. This is Natural Law, in totality.
 
I think the concept of an echo is a good analogy (An analogy is a word model, so a good analogy is a word model that satisfies the Hertzian Condition). To model something is a form of echoing chosen aspects of it in a new system of some sort. That new system may be thoughts, may be text (words, language), may be mathematical descriptions, may be visual (diagram/graphs/maps/three dimensional sculptural representation, etc)... In short, the mode of modeling doesn't change what you're doing-- you're still creating or using a new system to represent something else, in some way and to some degree. No model is going to correspond to any original system entirely (identical twins are not the same in every way, for example) and it is not even necessary for a model to "get as close as possible" in its entirety to that 'ideal' in order for it to qualify as a good model. In fact, I would argue that it is not an "IDEAL" at all.
 
Why? Because what aspects you want to model depend entirely on what you want the model FOR. Based on the context of what you want a model to do, the aspects to be included in the modeling relation will be chosen. So already context is critical, as is an ability to think! A good model is one where the relation of the inferential entailment in the model to the causal entailment in the system being modeled is one of correspondence AND pertains to what the model is supposed to be used for. Trouble can enter the picture from all directions, though, because what if the modelers don't know what they need? What if they don't know what they DON'T need??? What if the modelers don't realize they don't know?! This is where the discussion turns to issues of optimality and side-effects. However, let's assume that the modelers managed to create models that were in solid enough correspondence with the aspects of their natural systems which had required the use of models for some reason. Let's further assume that the models were applied well to whatever tasks required their application (another avenue for serious trouble to creep in). In that case, the models would prove very useful in their purpose/s and would satisfy the Hertzian Condition.
 
The Hertzian Condition is contextual, too, though. Models created for one purpose may only be corresponding accurately (in the modeling relation) in those aspects necessary for that particular purpose. If the model is assumed to be in correspondence in all sorts of other ways, and applied to different purposes, what are the chances that it will be in correspondence in ways made necessary by any new context? I think this is what has happened/is happening with Physics. Those models of reality satisfy the Hertzian condition well enough to be useful when applied to the tasks they were created for but the assumption has carried over that they can be trusted to be accurate representations of all aspects of any natural system. One of the things my father wrote in the notes I found after he died was the statement; "There are no such thing as Paradoxes in the natural world. There are only poorly created models, poorly applied. What we call paradoxes are really a symptom; a side-effect." They are a symptom that something is not corresponding well between our models and the systems being modeled.
 
By inference, then, we can say that the more applications in which a model satisfies the Hertzian condition (and its application doesn't generate side-effects), the more it is likely to reflect at least some aspect of Natural Law. Kepler's "regularities" don't automatically fall into this category because the sun doesn't "rise". That's a model, based on our perception. (However, it's interesting that this is a perception that other organisms apparently have modeled too! The sun's regular appearance and disappearance in any ecosystem triggers the single largest migration/behavior in organisms of any natural cyclical phenomenon.)
 
I don't think it's accurate to say:
Steve J. wrote:Natural Law as per Rosen. An epistemological
principle delineating what is open to (human?)
cognition.
 
He said that the establishment of true correspondence via a modeling relation was proof that we are capable of perception/cognition/communication of aspects of Natural Law. As you will see in the excerpt I posted, he said; "Natural Law makes two separate assertions about the self and its ambience". What these amount to (my translation) are 1.) That natural law exists; and 2.) That we can perceive and describe aspects of it.
 
In my view, and I daresay in my father's as well, the so-called "Laws of Physics" are inferential laws, pertaining to the models for use in specific applications, and are only laws in that sense. If they are not applicable outside of those original applications, as in with Biological systems, then they are proving that they are not reflections of "Natural Law". Natural Law was what he defined as pertaining to both self and ambience: The entailment in the universe (causality). Laws of science are our attempts to establish congruent modeling relations and are inferential laws of entailment. They have been generated by our "models" (whatever those models may be, including mental imaging, intuitional thoughts/pictures, and assumptions). The Hertzian Condition refers to the "encoding" and "decoding" verification processes.
 
Does that help?
 
Judith
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: [ROSEN] What is Law?

There has been a lot of argument about what law is an
isn't. I felt that in many cases this was mostly a
linguistic argument. For example, the following four
usages of the word "law" have as much to do with each
other as bark of a dog has to do with bark of a tree.

1. Kepler's Laws. A set of observations of regularity
in Nature that have been written down. Also in this
category: "The Sun rises everyday Law" and "Halley's
comment shows up every 86 years Law".

2. General Relativity. A timeless mathematical form
that has been put into congruence with a set of
observables.

3. Natural Law as per Rosen. An epistimological
principle deliniating what is open to (human?)
congnition.

4. Law as in emergent property of matter as in John
K's post. "The laws themselves are a formal product of
reality, which is a complementarity between formal and
realized components of a system."

Anyone who can provide a definition of what "Law" is
for the purpose of present discussion?

- Steve


--- Judith Rosen <***> wrote:

>
> Although Robert Rosen never did set down a list of
> what he suspected
> the knowable "Laws of Nature" were (insofar as he
> had been able to
> tell), I think I have a glimmer of what they would
> be, if he had. It
> might be a useful exercise to play with some of
> these ideas (although
> it would be a miracle if we all agreed on any of
> it!)
>
> 1.) Causality is possible because of the complex
> co-organization of
> space and time.
>
> 2.) The universe, as we perceive it, is among the
> effects of the
> relations and interactions made possible/constrained
> by the complex
> organization of space, time, and causality.
>
> 3.) Causality in the universe is a closed entailment
> loop such that
> everything in the universe is entailed by something
> else in the
> universe.
>
> 4.) The universe entails itself (Causality entails
> space/time and
> space/time entails causality).
>
> 5.) Some Combination of A.) the Ancient Greek notion
> that "Either
> matter is infinitely divisible or it isn't. If it
> isn't, there is a
> finite smallest particle.";  B.) Einstein's theorem
> that matter and
> energy are different forms of the same "thing."; C.)
> Energy/Matter is
> a consequence of the interaction of space in complex
> co-organization
> with time.
>
> 6.) Space is more than "the absence of stuff". Even
> an empty
> three-dimensional area is full of potential when
> time and space are
> co-organized. Space, at the very least, is the
> capability for three
> dimensional existence in the universe. It's
> potentially the capability
> for a great deal more than that.
>
> Judith
>




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