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Re: Fundamental problems in Physics



It's always interesting to see how other people look on the scientific work and ideas of other people. I also believe that everyone has the right to have and express their opinions, and I see very little in Howard's post that doesn't fall under that rubric. The few things that are not expressed as opinions are what I have comments on, below:
 
Howard Pattee wrote: Rosen's major contribution is to epistemology, or how we should think about scientific models. The bulk of his writing revolves around his elaboration and detailed analysis of the modeling process, and how the choice of observables and the measuring or encoding process is crucial to what type of formal structures satisfy the Herzian test. He was especially interested in how a given natural system could be encoded into inequivalent (complementary) models, including physical models, and especially why complex systems like life require such multiple inequivalent models. He certainly did not believe models were true or false, right or wrong, but that they were evaluated by their Hertzian conformance with the observed behavior of natural systems.
It is my opinion that what has turned out to be Robert Rosen's major contribution (to science) is to the foundations of it-- although that is not what he intended, initially, it is what he ultimately achieved. I also believe that he achieved an integration of biology with physics which healed a schism that should never have existed in the first place. Far from creating a rift with his comment ("The machine metaphor is not just a little bit wrong, it is entirely wrong and must be discarded."), I believe that is an _expression_ of honest irritation over the artificial limitations on the scope of physics which made it impossible for physics to be the general science it always declared itself to be. It was his belief that Physics should be the general science, but the artificial limitation must be excised. Anything less than a new underlying perspective is the equivalent of "Let's not and SAY we did."

It is also a serious injustice to accuse physicists as a group of claims about biology they have not made, especially when many have explicitly repudiated the claim that physical laws explain life. We all agree that state-determined dynamics do not describe memory controlled systems or informational constraints. They are in most cases fully and critically aware of their assumptions. Physicists are critical but not antagonistic to novel ideas. In fact, they welcome them if they are presented with some modesty and not as the "true model"  that calls for discarding all existing models.
 
This set of statements is based on a presumption that is either inapplicable or not entirely accurate. First of all, as I said before; there is a difference between accusing physicists (either as a group or individually) and accusing Physics. He was accusing Physics, based on claims made within the foundations of Physics itself. Those claims have not been repudiated; they are still being taught in high school.
 
Secondly, Robert Rosen believed that physical laws WOULD explain life, if the laws of Physics were broadened to include aspects of "Natural Law" that we can now verify (via the Herzian Condition") as being in existence; namely those connected to organizational causality. There is no need to develop a "new" science to explain why living organisms are alive, indeed it would be a mistake to leave the machine metaphor intact even to deal with "simple systems". The machine metaphor was a conclusion that Rene Descartes reached and he was mistaken. Period. Why anyone should be so offended by my father's saying so is a mystery to me. That same "Herzian Condition" is what proves that Descarte was mistaken and is what my father used as his argument in all his books!
 
Thirdly, it is just as inaccurate to characterize Physicists as a group as being "... in most cases fully and critically aware of their assumptions. Physicists are critical but not antagonistic to novel ideas."
I've met enough physicists to know that there are all kinds, frankly, which is pretty much the state of humanity as a whole. How many human beings are fully and critically aware of their assumptions? Even the most introspective of us may only be aware of SOME of our assumptions. The trouble with assumptions is that they are invisible once they attain that kind of categorization. However, my father was not antagonistic to Physics as a science and as far as individual Physicists go... he used to joke (with equal parts seriousness and mischief), in a German accent, "Some of my best friends are Physicists." (I think that line must have come from Stalag 17 or some other WWII movie).
 
Finally, I consider my father's work to be very modest in it's presentation. For all the statements like the one about the machine metaphor, there are equal numbers of statements poking fun at himself. He had a powerful self-confidence but he was not egotistical. What you are mistaking for scientific hubris I see as his innate self-direction and independence of mind.
 
Judith
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 12:51 AM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Fundamental problems in Physics

Judith,
I'm returning to the same starting place.

At 08:38 AM 12/15/04 -0500, Judith wrote:
I think this is a good place to start:
>Judith: As he [Rosen] said in Life, Itself, "The machine metaphor isn't
>just a little bit wrong, it is entirely wrong and must be discarded."

HP: It is difficult to see this statement as more than an _expression_ of
irritation. I have never heard anything like this from Rosen, and it
contradicts his long-standing concept of complexity as systems that require
multiple models.
 
Judith: Well, you are correctly reading his irritation, but it is far more than just irritation. He's stating it like it is, with none of the careful diplomacy that he had used up to that point, which seemed to be obscuring the message too much for it to get across clearly.

HP: In my opinion, when Rosen has a bad reception is because in LI he is not stating it as it is. Too often he is gratuitously dismissing other modelers. This is not the Rosen I knew. His long term attitude is expressed better in AS where physics is inadequate but not wrong. Again, in my opinion, what is also obscuring Rosen's message is your focus on disparaging useful tested models instead of focusing on constructing useful Rosen models.

Rosen's major contribution is to epistemology, or how we should think about scientific models. The bulk of his writing revolves around his elaboration and detailed analysis of the modeling process, and how the choice of observables and the measuring or encoding process is crucial to what type of formal structures satisfy the Hertzian test. He was especially interested in how a given natural system could be encoded into inequivalent (complementary) models, including physical models, and especially why complex systems like life require such multiple inequivalent models. He certainly did not believe models were true or false, right or wrong, but that they were evaluated by their Hertzian conformance with the observed behavior of natural systems.

In the thirty or so years I talked with Rosen about all kinds of models I never heard anything so contrary to his concept of model than, ". . . it is entirely wrong and must be discarded."  That is why I ascribe it to irritation and hyperbole.

Rosen believed Hertz was fundamentally correct. That is why he spent so much effort elaborating the modeling relation. All physical models are evaluated on the Hertzian condition and all physicists are well-aware that none of present models fully satisfies it. Nevertheless, no one who understands how incredibly close to the Hertzian ideal physics models are could justifiably say they are "entirely wrong" (e.g., the so-called standard model that includes quantum electrodynamics, electroweak and strong force models). Even Newton was not "entirely wrong." In fact it makes no sense to discard classical models. They work exceptionally well in their proper context. With what would you replace them? Before trying to dismiss Newton, just because he didn't get it all right, you should understand that his separation of the concept of laws and initial condition, is a prerequisite Hertz's epistemology and the models that follow it.

It is also a serious injustice to accuse physicists as a group of claims about biology they have not made, especially when many have explicitly repudiated the claim that physical laws explain life. We all agree that state-determined dynamics do not describe memory controlled systems or informational constraints. They are in most cases fully and critically aware of their assumptions. Physicists are critical but not antagonistic to novel ideas. In fact, they welcome them if they are presented with some modesty and not as the "true model"  that calls for discarding all existing models.

One thing I am quite certain about because of how ideas have evolved historically. Rosen's scientific legacy will not be decided by what Judith and Tim and the rest of us say on this list, and not even so much by what he actually published. The historical evaluation will be decided mostly by the biological models stimulated by his ideas; and not only by those who follow too closely, like disciples, but more by those who modify his general ideas for the specific questions they want to answer (as I think John K is trying to do.)

Howard