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(Re: The mathem...for Boris) & Does physics consider mechanisms only?



I am not really satisfied with Dr Aloisius' answser (concerning proof in LI, p.205, section 8C) (cf copy below).
As a matter of fact, why should the program for M should be the set of all Mi programs?
The (semi)order relation in the lattice of models does not force any relation between corresponding programs.
For that we would need a result like : "if M1<M2 then the program u1 for M1 is part of u2" or something alike.
 
I'd rather stick to the solution we've been discussing with Tim.
Still is to be determined if the intersection of all models is still a model.
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Now a remark : in the definition of "mechanism" and "machine" Rosen relies heavily on the "simulation" notion.
Simulable mappings are those which are "definable by an algorithm" (LI, p192).
Therefore most of mappings thar are definable in maths are not simulable. We can not work in continuous sets anymore if we are restricted to simulable mappings. And we loose also most of physics. We loose chaos. We loose statistical mechanics, Q mechs...
 
So I do not understand really why, as a result of his talk "On states and recursivity in mechanisms", Rosen says (LI,p212, 8H),  :
"As we have seen a contemporary physicist will feel very much at home in the world of mechanisms".
[...] Indeed the claim that () every natural system is a mechanism is the sole support of contemporary physic's claim to universality.
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For me, an important idea is the encoding/deconding diagram : it allows us to speak about "inferential structures", and the possible correspondance between a natural system N and Formal system F if diagram commutes (hertz condition, thanks Howard, that helps!)
 
Then comes the idea that physics, looking at a natural system, tries to find a unique formalism as a model of it. That is : physics tries to rely on a unique efficent cause (e.g. : newtonian force) and does not look for an explanation of this cause. And the role of symetries in contemporary physics may not really change this fact.
Instead, relational modeling says that the network of models is important, and even more, NECESSARY. This leaves room for biology : its "function" notion, the degenerate relation between structure and function, the multiple levels of organization, "multicausality".
From this point of view, if a "continuous Turing machine" could be imagined, Rosen's distinction between software and hardware would still work, and let us understand that, through simulation, inferential entailments, which play the role of efficient causes, become material causes. And that makes a clear distinction between simulation and the modeling relation, because the modeling relation "respects" inferential structures.
 
Boris
 
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Here is Aloisius answer :
>The important thing to remember is that a Turing machine must halt after
> FINITE number of steps.  So Rosen's argument was that this model M,
>which is strictly larger than any of the Mi, was forced to have a
>program that was an INFINITE set (all the Mi programs).  This was the
>part that was "clearly impossible": M cannot be a Turing machine AND
>have an infinite set as its program at the same time.

> What Rosen meant was that it was impossible for an infinite set to be (the
>representation of) a Turing machine.