Re: Operational Closure

Tim, in your quote I learned a RR _expression_ invaluvable to my concerns: "material reality". This is a limited model of what we may call 'physical thinking' (newer or older) and is based on the topically restricted (reduced?) views of the space-time-etc. model of the world. I always argued when someone spoke about "the reality" as we can know only the interpretation of the mind from taht segment which reached 'it' - whatever a 'mind' - part of THAT reality can interpret through the material tool of ours, ie. the neuronal brain. Now that was too much for the moelcular neurologists, who equate tMRI etc. with the 'cause' of thought.

Material reality can be solipsism for one, mysticism or physics for another. (Caveat: NOT materialistic reality).

Of course it was hard on RR to fit that into bio-organisms for the 'cell only' crowd to follow.

"In accord with Natural Law" I would say: when Natural Law can still be considered valid (within that model-view, of course).

Judith, as my 1st diploma spells out: Ph.D. does not stand for Physical, rather for Philosophical Doctor (no matter that is was for Chemistry-PHYSICS-Math). Please, don't get 'physical' with me for that. (another meaning from 'physos'.)

What you might have in mind is my 2nd diploma: D.rer.nat, Doctor rerum naturalium (not translatable as a doctor who is a rare nut). This one spells out "physics" in the conservative (i.e. reductionist) sense you aimed at. Plato's 'physos' of course referred only to the 'visible, functions-observable "physical" world'. Natural Laws and so.

May I add that in the numerous commi seminars I was forced to participate in the Marx-Lenin-Stalin soupmix Hungary we had to learn that economic/social laws are also "Natural Laws", so the (denied?) spirit (!) of the spiritless materialistic philosophy WAS representing the newer views about the physical world. It was in the 50s. The idea was: you can't 'force' Mother Nature (said not so decently) - not in 'physix' not in economy, not in societal developent - and they did it all (all the way to bankruptcy, so it was proven true).

Another question to Judith:

One synonym of "physical" is "material".

And what is a 'synonym' (meaning?) of "material"? Dr. Johnson's pebble in his shoe (because it hurts)? That was 'reality'.

Regards

John M

----- Original Message -----

From: Tim Gwinn

To: ***

Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:22 PM

Subject: Re: Operational Closure

Yes indeed. Thanks for clarifying that, Judith. Howard conveniently provided the quote I had in mind when I wrote that:

"However, there is nothing in the relational strategy that is unphysical, in the sense of "ideal" physics. The organization of a natural system (and in particular, of a biological organism) is at least as much a part of its material reality as the specific particles that constitute it at a given time, perhaps indeed more so. As such, it can be modeled or described, in full accord with Natural Law; the resulting formalisms have at least as much right to be called images of material reality as any reductionistic model based on states and dynamical laws." (LI, p. 119-120, ital. orig.)

Regards,

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:31 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Operational Closure

Tim is correct in his analysis, however there is one language issue that always confuses me, so I thought perhaps I'd point it out. The word "physical" has two equally logical potential meanings in this sentence:

Tim Gwinn wrote: I don't think of Rosen as "more of a Platonist" because he focused on system
organization. I think his argument was quite the opposite: that organization
was as physical as anything else, and therefore models of organization were
valid models, and belonged to an expanded view of physics.

Except one of them would be wrong. Time clearly meant the other one, which makes his statement consistent with my father's view. One synonym of "physical" is "material". The other is an extension of the word "physics" and the synonym is "physics-based".

It would be more accurate to say that my father's contention was that organization is as scientific a concept as those that physics embraces, and ought to be part of physics.

Judith

PS: The term PhD stands for Physical Doctor, whereas MD stands for Medical Doctor. When I first learned that, my response was "What's the difference? Medical doctors do physicals..."

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