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Re: Operational Closure



Hi Stephen,
 
First off, I was unaware that "causality" is a sore topic on this list. How can it be, when discussing Robert Rosen's work??? His work is all about the causal pathways of systems in the universe. Causality was his main focus, in many ways. So my feeling is; don't hesitate to ask questions about this (or anything else). It's Tim's list, but it would surprise me if he disagreed on this subject. In any case, you can always email me off-list with questions, too.
 
It does sound to me like "operational closure" is the same as a "closed loop of entailment".
 
When they say that the triggers in the external environment aren't "causing" the behavior, what they may be saying-- if it is like my father's view-- is that the behavior is being generated from within, rather than as a purely reactive process. The behavior is far more than a direct cause and effect of external environment to changes in the organism. Unlike water droplets which freeze into crystals when the temperature drops below 32 degrees F. (a purely reactive process) what is happening in an organism is radically different-- if the external environment is the same environment it evolved in. That's a big if, especially in the modern world where we take organisms out of their native environments all the time.
 
When organisms are in their native environments, their behavior is consistently matched to the behavior of the environment over time. A purely reactive mode of control in the system would not allow this-- they would not survive. Especially plants! 
 
If you take a tropical plant and grow it in a garden in the Northeast, it will not behave the same way with regards to seasonal weather triggers as plants which evolved in the Northeast. In that case, you will have some purely reactive stuff happening; the plant will freeze in the first cold snap and it will die. If the global climate changes radically enough, with wildly oscillating fluctuations in temperatures, we will being to see mass die-offs because of this very fact.
 
Your timing is amazing because I'm actually in the midst of writing my paper for BioTheory right now and it's got this stuff in it. It all has to do with what the definition and nature of an "anticipatory system" is. Have you ever read that book of my father's? Let me know, because it will save me a lot of typing! There are aspects to your questions which can only be answered in those terms, but I'll wait to hear back before launching into that.
 
Cheers,
Judith
Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/
My favorite discussion list (Independent-- Not part of Rosen Enterprises): ***
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 6:15 PM
Subject: [ROSEN] Operational Closure

I was reading Maturano and Varela's "Tree of
Knowledge" as well as "Autopoesis and Cognition" and I
want to hear your opinions on a point that I found
confusing.

One of the key concepts in the book is "Operational
Closure". As far as I can tell this is defined as
follows: "changes in the system are determined only by
the internal structure and dynamics of the system not
by external inputs".

They labour the point that external stimuli only
"trigger" the changes in an organism but they do not
"determine" them. The changes are determined by the
internal structure/dynamics of the system. The
external stiumulus merely "selects" one of the
possible paths for the ontogenetic drift from the
space  defined by the internal structure/dynamics.

A single cell, a multicellular organism, as well as a
society are all said to have operational closure.

At first I thought this was analogous to Rosen's
definition that organisms are closed under efficient
cause, that they are self-causing. But as I read
Maturano/Varela further I was puzzled to come across
repeated protestations that there is no causality,
that external stimuli only "trigger" but do not
"cause" behaviours (or rather internal changes whose
motor expressions we perceive as behaviour).

So my questions:

1. How are the words "trigger" and "cause" different
in this context? Do Rosen and Maturano/Varela mean
different things by the word "cause" or is there a
deeper disagreement?

2. Is "Closure Under Efficient Cause" equivalent to
"Operational Closure" and if not then what are the
differences?

3. Rosen never extended his concept of closure to
societies or "third order structural couplings" as M/V
refer to them. (first and second order couplings being
unicellular and metacellular organism)


I know causality is a sore topic on this list so I'm
sorry if I'm adding oil to the fire.

Thanks,

- Steve






















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