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Re: Maximally constrained



 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 2:31 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Maximally constrained

Don't make the mistake of equating "organization" with "structure". To think only in terms of structure subtracts away the interaction, which is where most of the causality is in any complex system. In that sense, the notion of defining a system by its structure is every bit as reductionist as the assumption that every system is the sum of its particulate matter. Organization is a far bigger concept than merely "structure". It includes the interactivity of parts with parts, of functions with functions, of internal contexts with external contexts, of matter with energy with time-- and time includes past, present, and future...
TG: I agree that functional organization cannot be equated, and probably not even mapped, to structure. That is the "structure-function complementarity" that he mentions in the paper and which I base my conjecture on. This is why I say it "would be very difficult to describe in strictly structural terms". (It may well be impossible, but I don't want to exclude a priori such a possibility.)
I would also caution people not to get too caught up in making things add up, physics-wise (as in "velocity variables" and etc.)-- especially when dealing with living systems. Bear in mind that physics is riddled with flaws to the point that it can only be considered "an educated guess" at best. A large proportion of my father's mathematical illustrations are intended to prove exactly that. Mathematics is a modeling tool and it should be used while it's useful, but once the limitations of it make it counterproductive for the application you need it for, then it's time to move on to other means of modeling or conceptualizing from that point on.
TG: I think my conjecture certainly ventures into an area where the mathematics and the physics are unclear. If functional organization is a real property of organisms, but one that cannot be mapped directly to structure; and if such organization involves physical constraints, then it is unclear to me how one can map those constraints to the usual descriptions in physics. This may involve 'new physics' (in the sense of: novel modes of description and maybe new observables).
When it comes to holonomic constraints in the organization of an organism; name some.
TG: Holonomic constraints ('rigidity' is a typical holonomic constraints) is clearly present in structural organization, such as the skeletal components. In terms of an organism's functional organization that I was concerned with, I am imagining that the constraints are largely, or all, non-holonomic, such that the functional organization could be maximally constrained so that it remains invariant, even when all dynamics are removed (i.e., the cell frozen). The interesting thing to me is that the (M,R)-system is a model of an invariant functional organization, and therefore I further conjecture whether realizing an (M,R)-system involves realizing a maximally constrained functional organization?
 
Regards,
Tim