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Re: Maximally constrained



Don't make the mistake of equating "organization" with "structure". To think only in terms of structure subtracts away the interaction, which is where most of the causality is in any complex system. In that sense, the notion of defining a system by its structure is every bit as reductionist as the assumption that every system is the sum of its particulate matter. Organization is a far bigger concept than merely "structure". It includes the interactivity of parts with parts, of functions with functions, of internal contexts with external contexts, of matter with energy with time-- and time includes past, present, and future...
 
I would also caution people not to get too caught up in making things add up, physics-wise (as in "velocity variables" and etc.)-- especially when dealing with living systems. Bear in mind that physics is riddled with flaws to the point that it can only be considered "an educated guess" at best. A large proportion of my father's mathematical illustrations are intended to prove exactly that. Mathematics is a modeling tool and it should be used while it's useful, but once the limitations of it make it counterproductive for the application you need it for, then it's time to move on to other means of modeling or conceptualizing from that point on.
 
When it comes to holonomic constraints in the organization of an organism; name some.
 
Judith
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Maximally constrained

It must be that organisms - as physical systems - have constraints...and some of them are holonomic and some are non-holonomic. It is required so that organisms are "held together" by forces rather than merely being blobs of statistically congregated particles in some area of space, like a gas cloud. Whether the non-holonomic constraints that are present are such in number that all velocity variables of all the structural 'particles' of an organism are determined by configuration alone is in question.
 
When I wrote my post this morning, it seemed compelling to me that an organism could be a maximally constrained system. Howard in his reply disagrees, and I thought about it some more and maybe it is not so compelling.  And the reason I am reconsidering has to do with what Rosen called "structure-function complementarity" in the paper. 
 
If I adopt the view that an organism is not a maximally constrained system, then what comes to mind for me is: if an organism's pattern (for lack of a better word) of behavior is not dependent upon forcing all velocity variables to be determined by configuration, then what allows its pattern of behavior to remain invariant despite the removal of some information (i.e., the removal of momenta due to freezing) from the system[Here I am using 'information' in a general sense, not specifically referring to Howard's 'informational constraint'.]
 
My conjecture would be: those momenta (of the unconstrained 'particles') must not therefore constitute information relevant for the system's pattern of behavior. In that case, it would appear to follow that the dynamics of structure are not the relevant criteria. What I am now wondering is if the invariance of behavior to the removal of all dynamics indicates that (at least some) of the non-holonomic constraints that are present constitute a nexus of such constraints which serves to keep the functional organization invariant. This would be very difficult to describe in strictly structural terms, i.e. in the usual formal representation for constraints in analytical mechanics, because we don't have a good way to first represent biological "functions" in structural terms onto which these constraints could then be imposed.
 
The result would be that an organism is not maximally constrained structurally, but is maximally constrained functionally.  
 
That's my thoughts for the moment anyway,
Tim
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:54 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Maximally constrained

Hallelujah! Thank you, Tim!
 
I think, however, it might be worth discussing whether organisms are also "maximally non-holonomically constrained" systems or not. The more I consider the nature of organization and how it creates context, the more I see that non-holonomic constraints are actually a possibility engine.
 
When this thread first came up, it was presented as if my father was actually saying that, and I knew the only way he could have said it, which would be consistent with his belief structure, was if there was some aspect to it that created more possibilities than it limited. Hence, it seemed quite reasonable to interpret the language such that "maximal" is to "maximized" what "optimal" is to "optimized", and that may still be the case-- he used the word that way in conversation. It became apparent, as more of the paper was included, that the argument was a moot point; he was talking about how a machine could mimic an organism.
 
The more I have researched the range of what can be defined as a "non-holonomic constraint", though, the more I realize that the whole phrase represents a situation in a system where the potentials are the most highly developed (maximized). I regard anything that interacts with a system in any way that causes change as "a constraint". Certainly, from that vantage point, non-holonomic constraints in system organization generate more potential than no constraints at all.
 
That fascinates me because it is, as my father would say; "counterintuitive".
 
Judith