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Re: MR and MR



A relational mindset or frame of reference would take into account that any model or conglomeration of models of a complex system is incomplete. That means that there will always be causal factors unaccounted for in the predictions generated by the model/s. At the very least, with no change in the modeling apparatus, this would generate a realistic caution in trusting the predictions, which my father stated will become more and more inaccurate over time (as these unaccounted-for causal factors proliferate and interact-- because they ARE relational). But the new mindset could also help enormously in creating new models which have fewer of the sorts of flaws that reductionist approaches generate when applied to complex systems.
 
For example, with hurricane analysis and predicted storm paths, etc... (with hurricane Ivan bearing down on Florida, it seems appropriate...) It's well known that land masses negatively impact hurricane organization as does cold water. These are relational effects; ones that are already incorporated into the model even though they may not be recognized for what they are. Once you think in relational terms, however, you begin to see other relational effects that need to be incorporated into the models. If a hurricane passes over a mountain range, let's say, then there will be a plethora of relational effects on the hurricane... but if the hurricane passes over a mountain range that is actually a row of actively erupting volcanoes... there will be different relational effects.  Why?
 
Weather forecasting is already going in this direction, but they are doing it piecemeal and without awareness of what it all means. The relation of one thing to another has a causal impact that cannot be explained by either "thing" on its own. That is the basic truth my father built his work on; the essence of why organization is so important.  If the foundational basis the weather models were starting from were a relational one, then the gaps in the pieces could be minimized. We will never be able to predict the weather with utter certainty because of the nature of complexity (being non-computable). But we can do far better than the current reductionist-mechanist generated models are able to do. The same can be said of medical research and medical models-- in fact, it is one of my main ambitions (as caretaker of Rosennean Complexity Theory) to put my father's work into the minds of medical science, one way or another.  I will rewrite it, using medical terminology, if I have to. If "necessity is the mother of invention", then my little handicapped daughter is plenty inspiration and necessity for my invention!
 
Judith
 
----- Original Message -----
From: John M
To: ***
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 11:52 AM
Subject: [ROSEN] MR and MR

----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 11:01 PM
Subject: Fw: Could you give me your analysis of this?
 
Dear Judith, first many thanks for your parenthetical clarification: "...completely characterizes" the M-R (metabolism-repair) process, ..."
since it still haunts me: when is it Modelling Relation.
 
I think one point was not clear in your intro (maybe only to me):
PS: Incidentally, there was also a question about whether it is still useful to create computer models of living processes if my father's assertion that "complex systems are not computable" holds true. I think it is important to point out that my father talked about this in nearly all his books, at great length. And he concluded that it IS still valuable, still useful, even ESSENTIAL to model complex systems as long as our models of complex systems are constructed with a relational mindset-- regardless of the mode we use. A relational mindset at the very least ensures that we never mistake the model for the system.
 
that the (computer) model of "complex systems" stands really for - of "models of complex systems". If we think of reductionist limited models to begin with, as those - called 'complex systems'-  to be algorithmicized, the whole thing does not make reasonable sense.
Your last sentence in the quote ("relational mindset" still fuzzing in my mind) may point to what I just said. So the algorithm would not be about the (non-computable) natural system, rather about an essentially chosen limited model of it fitting the topic in question. I was
not quite following Louis analysis, I have the feeling that he also restricts the 'model-system' ' into a 'model of the system'.
Does this - what I wrote - exceed the limits of a reasonable mind?
 
John M