Re: machine, organism, life

[Judith Rosen <***>]

Hey John K-- nice to "hear" your voice on the list again. And interesting points you bring up:

 

> I think this issue of ecosystem vs organism is very much a chicken-egg
> problem like structure vs function. We keep getting these infinite
> regresses from our epistemic duality perspective

 

I agree that the two co-exist and are linked in an evolutionary sense such that the environment is reflected in the organization of the organisms that evolved within it. But this begs the question; What is the difference between "environment" and "ecosystem"? In my view, which I believe is consistent with my father's, the environment is what living organisms are not completely separable from, whereas ecosystem and all other terms that relate to life in an environment (like "biosphere") pertain to the interaction of living organisms and all other influences (like weather, sunshine, etc) within an environment. What Dan Fiscus and I were discussing, then, is not really the chicken/egg question but the environment/chicken question.

 

It was the chicken/egg question that my father answered via (Rosennean) complexity-- that reproduction is included within metabolism/repair in an (M,R)-System. Thus, the answer to the chicken/egg question is that they entail each other because they are alive. This is not true of the environment/organism question. Environments don't cause life; complexity does. Complexity also causes atom formation, and hence by extension; environments. Complexity refers to organizational properties that are inherent in this universe. Therefore, it can be said that complexity causes both environments and organisms, which together (in my view) equal "ecosystems".

 

> So, it seems to me that ecosystems must be considered a partially
> fractionable concept, somewhat intermediary between physical systems and
> organisms. When we attempt to fractionate an organism in essence we are
> then analyzing an ecosystem, and corresponding we lose important aspects of
> the organism in doing so.

 

I think the above is brilliant and reinforces the view that it is the organizational aspect that is being referred to when we use a word like "organism" or "ecosystem". To kill an organism is to simplify its organization. It becomes something else; an environment in which living organisms interact or an "ecosystem". What Dan described in his post as being responsible for life and for evolution is what my father called "complexity". It is that organizational aspect that has causal implications yet is not a material "thing" in itself.

 

Judith