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Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment



Tim and Don,
I tried several times the texts of both of you (especially Tim's first) and I am still not sure that I got it.
 "Going back to the quote Judith gave from Life Itself,  the dualism between self and not self is "the most fundamental dualism, which all others presuppose."
I find it unfortunate that RR used the word 'dualism', not some equivocal (!) synonymous metaphor expressing our innate disposition for reductionism: to view the world in our models, which the mind can handle. What be a 'non-dualism' in this sense? the undifferentiated wholism, the immordial grits. (oops: I formulated the negation of what is antedated in primordial).
It is not true, wholeness IS differentiated, while interconnected.
That does not mean it is parcellized or partitioned. We are in a construct where strong defining characteristics should be avoided, before we learn more about it.
If "I" feel my thoughts (experience, views, etc.) more relevant  than the gravitational surge of a supernova, it is not dualism.
I tried to touch on that in a 'corrective' paper to my KJF article (Networks of Networks) on 'influence' - readable in my website:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jamikes/influence.html  - indeed only an attempt to raise these ideas.
In common sense one thinks in 'dualism' the mind-body folly, or Descartes' extension - soul defensiveness. What we talk about is - as Don remarked - "requiring two or more models, descriptions or presentations" more: unlimited. He expressed this precisely in the 3-part Tao style circumscript.
 
I raised my voice against the formal dualism of "here I am and look around at 'them', the environment" but in accordance with the above RR quote, "I" am thinking for myself  in my models - about a subtly differentiated wholeness, where "I" feel like closest.  No grits. We are still 'our selves'. 1st persons.
And no solipsism, feeling like the wholeness by myself, undifferentiatedly.
 
Tim, you wrote:
"So, I consider [ - ] a partition of the whole into self and not-self....[later[ so I have partitioned the world into that which is self and that which is not-self. "
---SAIS WHO?---
I am not ashamed of being my self,  even if I have a hard time to describe it. But I don't 'partition' it, simply trying to differentiate aspects.
Finally in the multiplicity (Don) I feel the word 'dualism'  insufficient. (Like 'bifurcation' from unlimited choices. )
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

JohnM,
 
I am not sure what you mean by "exaggerate dualism".
 
My assertion is that in the act of any manner of making an identification of self, there is a conceptual partitioning of the world (the undifferentiated whole) into self and not-self (i.e., environment). So, I consider that for there to be something called a "1st person interpretation" there is, for that person, a partition of the whole into self and not-self.
 
By this I do not consider personal experience irrelevant. I do not see how that follows. If I call something "personal experience", then I do consider that "personal" only has meaning in reference to the concept of self. Thus, whether explicitly or tacitly, I have partitioned the world into that which is self and that which is not-self. This in no way says that personal experience is somehow irrelevant.
 
 Going back to the quote Judith gave from Life Itself,  the dualism between self and not self is "the most fundamental dualism, which all others presuppose."
 
I feel that attempts to imagine that one can consider oneself (for lack of a better word) unified into an undifferentiated whole, yet also maintain or assert some reference to self ("personal",  "1st person", "direct access", etc.) is to equivocate on this dualism.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:48 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

Tim,
as I emphasize the "MY" it means simply that it is my opinion, not necessarily matching the general usage.
If you exaggerate 'dualism', I think you are in danger of falling into solipsism. (There is a long and multidsciplinary discussion on the Journal of Consciousness Science Online, mostly philo-and psych- about solipsism and I would not like to fall into it. )
(Of course there is also a lot to it what has been said at again another list that a "unit" implies at least two. )
Do you negate any "1st person" interpretation? Do we have direct access to the totality of nature? Is personal experience irrelevant? Or are you complacent in dualism?
 
Semantics (the relational study of symbols) slips easily into syntax (the relational study of symbol relations).
 
John M
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

For me, any use of the term "my" implies a self/other dualism. Otherwise, it would seem to be quite meaningless.
 
Regards,
Tim