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Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment



JohnM,
 
I am not sure what you mean by "exaggerate dualism".
 
My assertion is that in the act of any manner of making an identification of self, there is a conceptual partitioning of the world (the undifferentiated whole) into self and not-self (i.e., environment). So, I consider that for there to be something called a "1st person interpretation" there is, for that person, a partition of the whole into self and not-self.
 
By this I do not consider personal experience irrelevant. I do not see how that follows. If I call something "personal experience", then I do consider that "personal" only has meaning in reference to the concept of self. Thus, whether explicitly or tacitly, I have partitioned the world into that which is self and that which is not-self. This in no way says that personal experience is somehow irrelevant.
 
 Going back to the quote Judith gave from Life Itself,  the dualism between self and not self is "the most fundamental dualism, which all others presuppose."
 
I feel that attempts to imagine that one can consider oneself (for lack of a better word) unified into an undifferentiated whole, yet also maintain or assert some reference to self ("personal",  "1st person", "direct access", etc.) is to equivocate on this dualism.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:48 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

Tim,
as I emphasize the "MY" it means simply that it is my opinion, not necessarily matching the general usage.
If you exaggerate 'dualism', I think you are in danger of falling into solipsism. (There is a long and multidsciplinary discussion on the Journal of Consciousness Science Online, mostly philo-and psych- about solipsism and I would not like to fall into it. )
(Of course there is also a lot to it what has been said at again another list that a "unit" implies at least two. )
Do you negate any "1st person" interpretation? Do we have direct access to the totality of nature? Is personal experience irrelevant? Or are you complacent in dualism?
 
Semantics (the relational study of symbols) slips easily into syntax (the relational study of symbol relations).
 
John M
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

 
-----Original Message-----
 --snip--
 
JM:
Of course, it is. I am not speaking about A observing B (systems) in "physical"(!) interaction. Observation IMO is acceptance of information, maybe within ONE natural system as in other cases callable: (self?)reorganization. "MY" mental aspect within the "environment" (totality) is enriched and changed.
No dualism. No system-interaction.  
 
 
For me, any use of the term "my" implies a self/other dualism. Otherwise, it would seem to be quite meaningless.
 
Regards,
Tim