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Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment



JohnM,
 
You wrote:
That has a double consequence:
1. I am part of it, not a spectator, and
I probably wouldn't use the phrase "part of it" *. As Judith noted, the partitioning into self and other is fundamental for science to occur. But this is a conceptual partitioning of the physical world by us, and just because we can conceive of this clear dualism does not thereby entail that the physical world can actually be studied as if they were two fractionable pieces: a subjective observer and an entirely objective environment of that observer.
    If all observables or percepts are the result of the physical interactions of at least two systems, then to be an observer is to be in physical interaction with other systems.  This makes the notion of a subjective observer fractionable from an objective environment an untenable position, unless one asserts a priori that systems in isolation and environments of those systems in isolation can produce no new behaviors when brought into interaction with each other. But such an assertion is clearly (at least to me) false. This line of thinking of observables as requiring system interactions also roughly forms the basis of Rosen's book Fundamentals of Measurement.
    * I wouldn't use the phrase "part of it" (where "it" refers to "environment") because to me that phrase implies that the self/environment dualism is being maintained, at least linguistically.
 
 
2. I 'see' it adjusted to my own viewing.
If you are within the same setup as I and we both look at "the same" environment (including both of us) we will have not-matching connotations of "it", pertinent to the two different experiential mindcontents interpreting it.
Somewhere....and darned if I can find it at the moment....Rosen said something like 'the study of organisms may be the study of inequivalent observers.' That, at least, is my recollection. I thought it was in FM or AS but I cannot find it at the moment.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:22 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Physics and Metaphysics - systems and environment

Tim,
 
[thanks for extracting this relevant part of Jamie's post, which, in its entirety, was to long and complicated for me to comprehend in all its details. What you wrote is not much better: when you start using formalized expressions instead of just verbalized explanations I am out. (Not that the verbalized features (briefly: WORDS) would always be within my vocabulary). Parts prone to my 'rethinking' are colored in teal. ]
*
Now for environment: IMO "I" belong to (into) MY environment
('am within') so if I look 'at it' I have to include myself.
 
That has a double consequence:
1. I am part of it, not a spectator, and
2. I 'see' it adjusted to my own viewing.
If you are within the same setup as I and we both look at "the same" environment (including both of us) we will have not-matching connotations of "it", pertinent to the two different experiential mindcontents interpreting it.
 
Is this in some contradiction with RR or anybody here?
 
John M