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Re: Physics and Metaphysics - immanent causality



Judith wrote:
Organization itself has a context in that there is no organization unless there is something which is organized.
When I read this it struck me as perhaps being another way of describing something Rosen spoke about occasionally: immanent causation. He mentions it in Essays, ch 17 "What Does it Take to Make an Organism?". I also found it just the other day in a recent acquisition of mine, one of the Abisko book series by Casti and Karlqvist, entitled Beyond Belief (1991). Rosen's chapter was entitled "What Can we Know?".
 
Immanence carries the notion of embodiment or in-dwelling. He uses the example that the relation of SUBSET to SET is entirely different than SET to "SETNESS". The former is a case of particular to general. The latter is a case of an instantiation of immanence. In the statement above, organization is immanent, or embodied, in the system while it is an organized system. In the realization problem, it seems that one of the conundrums is how to convert explicit formal entailments (of symbols linked to other symbols) into an embodied organization in a material entity.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:58 AM
To: ***
Subject: Physics and Metaphysics

I pulled the section on Metaphysics (at the bottom of this post) off the Principia Cybernetica Web site (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/METAPHI.html) because Ayten's post inspired me to revisit my father's discussion of the difference between physics and metaphysics. It is clear to me that much must have changed in science if the word "metaphysics" is no longer a slanderous insult.  If the word now means only "areas of science above and beyond physics"-- that's PROGRESS. The rest of this post will explain why I say that:
 
 Metaphysics, as a concept, used to be lumped in with telos/teleos (teleology), in the scientific world that my father grew up in. All such terms, including "metaphysics" were associated with Aristotle, who in turn was associated with religion/God after the Scholastic movement of Thomas Aquinas. "Vitalism" (the assertion that whatever makes living things alive is outside natural/physical causes) came in there, somewhere, too, along the way. Therefore, to call a scientist a "meta" ANYTHING, as in "engaging in metaphysics" was tantamount to saying he was not a scientist at all. To put it another way: Them were fightin' words! And people did try to pin that designation on my father-- many, many times. That's where the famous/infamous Robert Rosen line;"Contemporary physics is too impoverished to answer questions in biology," comes from. "Impoverished" was his way of saying what he meant, but also of flinging "metaphysics" right back in their faces.
 
The definition of metaphysics that I learned from my father was full of connotations: He said, "It refers to speculative philosophy, in particular the philosophy of how we came to be or how all of material reality came to be." He saw metaphysic as being the preoccupation with ontology (origin of the universe), whereas his main concern was with epistemology (knowledge of how the universe works). Indeed, one of his discoveries regarding complex systems is that their epistemology  tells us nothing much about their ontology. When it came to the connotations of "metaphysics" as an accusation, however, I think it was the word "speculative" that most irritated my father. He said there was nothing "speculative" about theory, if you are doing it right. Philosophy has the freedom to speculate, but science is based on entailment. "It's a causal world," he used to say. In natural systems, we talk about causal entailment and in formal systems (models or mathematics, etc) we are dealing with inferential entailment. He believed that entailment in the natural world is logical, consistent, and therefore knowable via science.
 
The aspects of complexity that drew my father to reject the contemporary matter-based foundations in science and redevelop the foundations around organization were, indeed "outside physics". But only because physics had limited itself to the study of a very narrow band of material phenomena within the universe. In other words, physics was being artificially limited to that narrow band and yet still wanted to call itself the "general science" or the science of general principles. 
 
I guess it might be fair to characterize my father's attitude as being one of preserving physics rather than one of tearing it down. He felt there should be a science of general principles and he was willing to call it physics, but only if it really was what it purported to be. In order for that to be so, physics needs to enlarge beyond matter-based foundations and the concommitant reductionist approaches. I think it's important to reiterate that my father did not advocate getting rid of reductionist approaches or ignoring what the study of matter (of "pieces" and "parts") can teach us. He was advocating removing such things from the foundations, and putting them somewhere on the main floor. Organization itself has a context in that there is no organization unless there is something which is organized. It may be matter-based like a solar system, or it may be a system made up of thoughts such as consciousness. Both exist and both require further study, but an organization-based foundation allows the scientific study of BOTH, whereas the current paradigm does not-- it wants to study the brain in order to learn about thought. But it wants to study the brain by studying the parts, the pieces, the subsystems... and so it goes.
 
Studying the biochemistry of memory encoding, for example, would be a necessary aspect of understanding consciousness in an organization-based approach, but the mindset is different: memory is one subsystem of consciousness and the biochemistry is one subsystem of memory. If you are studying biochemistry with a fully developed notion of function and the self-entailment of complex system organization at the root of the thought process involved in study, you will be doing things very differently than what has been done in the past and what is being done now.
 
Here's the website excerpt from the Principia Cybernetical website, which I think requires some analysis... but I'll do that in a separate post:

 -snip-