Re: [COMPLEX-M] Objective Knowledge, Stories and Models

[John M <***>]

Dear Ayten,
Kant's phrase is incredible - at his time and the epistemic level there was.
Psych was not yet evolved to the level to make it sure that "anything" we
perceive - appercipiate is by the mind's acceptance and subject to the
capacity and experientila content of the mind.
This is why I expose myself to controversy saying that objective knowledge
is by default subjective.
You wrote:
>In a way, objectivity and subjectivity are
> like the non-separable opposite sides of the same medallion<
I would add: without a chance to look at the far side of it.

Some speak about a (virtual?) objektivity which is a social synthesis of
(many? accepted?) 1st person opinions about objectivities - still some sum
of subjective statements. Many call that 3rd person conclusions, however
such conclusions are also only feasible by the accepting
individuals' 1st person decision to accept it - and most likely - not in the
unaltered form, rather adjusted to the acceptor's mindwork, the experience
content and (mind)behavioral attitude.
Try to ask 100 educated people to explain Kant's statement:
"Beautiful is that pleases without (vested? personal?) interest" (or however
is the English official translation). Chances are that there will be no two
of them matching in all details.

The mental complexity human - the 'natural system human' working in concert
with its materially restricted tool, the neuronal brain, is incapable of
encompassing the totality of interconnections, rather selects the aspects
familiar with the experiential material in mind.
Such fundamental reductionism controls our thinking, within which we
identify "our" objective reality, truth and decisions. Thought, however,
would be 'a-temporal', 'a-spatial', (you can jump in thought without ANY
time-delay from NYC to HongKong and so do our dreams) the mind, howver,
observes the limitations of its material ingredient.
(I don't know about a general concensus about identifying "mind".)

Best wishes

John Mikes



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ayten Aydin" <***>
To: <***>
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [COMPLEX-M] Objective Knowledge, Stories and Models


> To all concerned with objectivityXsubjectivity pair:
>
>  I quote a phrase from Kant which may be handy for those interested in
> deepening on the above.That is:
>
> "There is no objectivity, but there is a synthesis of many objectivities".
>
> Then I say: The objectivity merges with the subjectivity as the synthesis
of
> essences of many objectivities. In a way, objectivity and subjectivity are
> like the non-separable opposite sides of the same medallion. We have, in
> effect, reached a stage where we have separated them and placed into very
> distinctive positions in far away quarters, giving a preference to the
> former believing that only objective judgements give us a sound, rational
> and thus reliable base to establish all life matters. This belief is the
> off-spring of the Scientific (17th)and the Industrial (18th/19th
centuries)
> Revolutions. In effect , nowadays a particular attention is given to not
> letting the subjectivity to interfere or even corrupt the process
> objectively set in motion.
>
> Human being has a lot to do to renew itself which is only possible by
> becoming able to see and understand themselves and things around in their
> totality and recognizing subjectively (!) their inherent complexities.
>