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Re: One of the posts from the Blog Experiment on Jack Park's site



Ayten, I join you in praising Judith's post - however it was more than what I can easily read (and absorb?).  I am thrown off when RR draws examples (evidences?) from chapters of biology, physics (and math, like 'Hamiltonian')
for statements about (wholistic) complexity, which indeed are abstracted reductionist models of the latter. Then I have to stop, re-read, and realize that RR addressed the reader, who comes from reductionst scientific thinking. I am not.
 
I got 2 ideas: 
1./ a clone is chimeric: the difference between 'more or less' is quantitative, not reaching into the quale.
 
I could not decipher RR's opinion about the psyche of a (successful?) clone, IMO the genetic stuff it continues is
pertnent only to body(function) building.
Your _expression_
>"...neurological (including all brain functions), passional, >intuitional, spiritual;...<
gave me the idea #2:
( I don't recall a concerning thought from RR - (Judith?) - )
namely that cloning may provide a "blank" mindset.
Works on the body. Genetic bio-stuff.
In my decade-long  discussions about the memes (not in the original Dawkins version and not as later opponents distorted it) - it is IMO a "routine" of one's thinking, style,
(dis)likes, beliefs, emotions, the mindset - and it develops
on the gentically provided base during development - maybe starting in the womb, enriched in early learning about the world (environment), both physical and social, as pretty flexible at this age, although later on it can be altered by learning-experience (whatever we mean by that).
My usual example (and this will be familiar to you) are the
Yanitchars, the Janissaries, the Flowers of the Garden of Begtas, the elite force of the Ottoman Sultans. They were collected from a wide series of occupied countries as babies, from an even wider (genetic/worldview) sortiment
of descent, and brought up in collective 'vocational' muslim education into uniform, reliable killing machines.
I called them secondary clones before cloning became a realistc (household) concept.
As I wrote some time ago to another list: we did not read the report of a sheep-psychologist who examined Dolly in the "sheepish psych science" (in sheepese) whether she was
a psychologically 'normal' sheep. I don't trust the human examinations and conclusions in sheepish matters.
Your idea about the successful cloning which:
>"...could produce uniform individuals to gradually replace >the diversity at large,..."<
postulates the discontinuation of the bisexual process. It
may well be that the clones will be more successful(?)
but this perspective looks to me as utterly boring.
Not only do I find the conventional techniques entertaining,
I also realize that Nature (the biosphere?) goes for diversity.
We are very very far from "the age of the clone", don't even know (our other ongoing thread) whether besides unknown psych, which I mentioned, will a clone have an adequate immune system? A repair mechanism? does it respond to
medication? Heal wounds?
I am not surprised that RR did not speak much about cones (it would have been premature before their emerging).
 
Cheers
 
John M
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: One of the posts from the Blog Experiment on Jack Park's site

Judith,
 
It is an interesting and thought provoking post.
I am wondering, even it may not be directly related to your post, what your father was thinking and you&others in the list are thinking about the clonning, in terms of both bilogical and cultural anthropology. On the ethical side, if successful, an authority with all the means at hand, could produce uniform individuals to gradually replace the diversity at large, as one point. The other is whether physiologically cloned individual (i) will have the ability to cope with the requirements of higher more and more complex realms such as biological, neurological (including all brain functions), passional, intuitional, spiritual; (ii) if so will they develop in line with the abilities of the original from which they sprung out or split in the process ???
 
My best,
Ayten
----- Original Message ----- 
To: ***
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:06 PM
Subject: One of the posts from the Blog Experiment on Jack Park's site

Hi Folks,
I thought the list would be interested in this excerpt of my father's so I'm posting it here, as well. Wherever I have inserted comments or changes, they are encased in brackets [   ]. They number very few.
Cheers,
Judith
 
(Repeat-copy of excerpts truncated)
 
 
 
 
 
 
Press in 1999.