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Re: Cloning



Tim, Judith
 
Thank you for your very informative and educative posts. It seems that to be on the safe side we should not be outsiders to what is going on in this field, certainly including the GM that is already in practice and rapidly spreading all over the world in the name of combatting the hunger. In this venture, side effects are deliberately overlooked by policy makers as the alternative is considered to letting people to die of hunger. It is already a great dilemma in the field of GM, let aside the cloning, for organ or the whole human being. 
 
I wonder, how we, non-biologists, can defend future generations from these likely ill doings. Who are informing the people, at the bottom line? I gather, Scientific American has a very limited readership. I have a subscription, but copies arrive here (Italy) very sporadically. When I see an article of a public interest, I do some informing around me. But the people tend to ignore things belonging to tomorrow! There must be more effective and incisive system of alert. Something useful is moving in Italy on the GM. At least the vendors put by law a label on their products indicating the origin of the food they sell and if it is GM or not. I wonder how these things are handled in the USA. Usually the rest of the world blindly follow what happens in the USA good or bad.
 
My best,
Ayten
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: Cloning

Along the lines of cloning, chimera, and dangers, I was just reading the article entitled "Synthetic Life" in the May 2004 issue of Scientific American. (www.sciam.com) The idea behind "synthetic biology" is described also at MIT's www.syntheticbiology.org:
Synthetic biology refers to both (a) the design and fabrication of biological components and systems that do not already exist in the natural world and (b) the re-design and fabrication of existing biological systems.
Under the Documents tab on this website, the Slides from the 11/20/02 seminar provide a coarse overview. (Any programmer will appreciate the pseudocode on slide 7.)  The document "Recombineering: Homologous Recombination-Mediated DNA Engineering in E.coli" supplies a surprisingly step-by-step description of one method of building augmented/altered functions into organisms. It might be retitled "How to Recombineer E. Coli in Your Spare Time for Fun and Profit".
 
Certainly the Sci-Am article points out that the current level of ability in synthetic biology falls far short of being an ability to engineer in an reliably predictable manner. The current approach seems to focus on finding those codings of chunks of DNA that will reliably encode some particular function - those that are context-independent. Along these lines, the goal is to create a canonical set of such parts, called "BioBricks", which can be utilized for adding predictable sets of functions to organisms at will. MIT has a list of the current set of such canonical parts, called the "MIT Registry of Standard Biological Parts" at http://parts.mit.edu/.
 
The presumed context-independence, though, does not stretch far. On p. 3 of the Sci-Am article:
 
One way to deal with the complexity added by the cells' native genome is to dodge it: the genetic device can be sequestered on its own loop of DNA, separate from the chromosome of the organism. Physical separation is only half the solution, however, because there are no wires in cells. Life runs on "wetware," with many protein signals simply floating randomly from one part to another. "So if I have one inverter over here made out of proteins and DNA," Endy explains, "a protein signal meant for that part will also act on any other instance of that inverter anywhere else in the cell," whether it lies on the artificial loop or on the natural chromosome.

One way to prevent crossed signals is to avoid using the same part twice. Weiss has taken this approach in constructing a "Goldilocks" genetic circuit, one that lights up when a target chemical is present but only when the concentration is not too high and not too low. Tucked inside its various parts are four inverters, each of which responds to a different protein signal. But this strategy makes it much more difficult to design parts that are truly interchangeable and can be rearranged.

This seems to me to go back to Judith's recent quote from the intro to AS: "Can we design systems which are proof against a principle of function change?". If we could indeed have a canonical set of context-independent parts, then this would seem to be immediately possible. However, it seems to me that if such context-independence is mostly wishful thinking, then "proof against function change" requires an entirely different  approach, where the intended organization of multiple functions cannot rest on serial accretion of functions, but rather a simultaneous interdependence among 'parts' - an impredicative organization. This would be a very different kind of engineering task.
 
Alternatively, one might use mitochondria as examples of how to achieve some greater degree of context-independence within a cell: rather than conceiving 'parts' as canonical chunks of DNA, one builds mitochondria-like 'modules' which provide some greater degree of chemical and functional separation. At some point, this approach will break down too, as the desire to concatenate functions result in unwanted side-effects as signals pass from module to module. (Also, the burden on the cell of such concatenation must at some point become excessive.) So, eventually, the kind of impredicative engineering I mention above would seem to me to be required eventually for this approach too.
 
Although I can appreciate the spirit behind synthetic biology, I have to say it strikes me as fraught with the potential to wreak unbelievable havoc on the world, either through intentional misapplication or through unforeseen functional relations occurring between a modified organism and some ecosystem into which it mistakenly contaminates.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 8:54 AM
To: ***
Subject: Cloning

Ayten Aydin wrote:
I am wondering, even it may not be directly related to your post, what your father was thinking and you&others in the list are thinking about the cloning, in terms of both biological and cultural anthropology. On the ethical side, if successful, an authority with all the means at hand, could produce uniform individuals to gradually replace the diversity at large, as one point. The other is whether physiologically cloned individual (i) will have the ability to cope with the requirements of higher more and more complex realms such as biological, neurological (including all brain functions), passional, intuitional, spiritual; (ii) if so will they develop in line with the abilities of the original from which they sprung out or split in the process ???
 
I discussed issues like cloning and genetically modifying organisms with him often. Regarding cloning in particular and genetic modification in general, he felt that science which is proceeding from the limited theoretical premise of mechanism would naturally generate endless side effects. Even a Rosennean theoretic premise would not be able to eliminate side effects, but the scientists would be able to do some complexity analysis going IN (in preparation), and the results of that analysis might be enough to scare the hell out of them enough to scrap the whole idea. At least they would see the dangers.
 
The kind of tinkering they are doing with complex systems, when they really don't understand complexity at all, is extremely dangerous and I think they mostly don't see the danger. But when we break apart a complex system like an atom, we are unleashing forces that are otherwise stabilized in our environment and that is obviously going to have side effects. Can you imagine what would be some of the results if science figures out how to "genetically modify" atoms? Would some new form of matter be compatible with this universe? This is the kind of thing I write fiction about!
 
In cloning, we have already discussed the fact that the mitochondria in the donor egg are not replaced with the mitochondria of the organism to be cloned, so there is a chimerical element introduced, right there, from day one. There are going to be consequences from that. Side effects. It may be that every single cell in the body of the cloned individual has subtle immune consequences due to the fact that there are really two separate individuals present in every single cell of the body. Cells apparently have certain immuno-capabilities within the cell walls to regulate internal activity in limited ways, according to the preliminary research I did on the subject.
 
However, my father's views on genetically modified organisms were very mixed. He thought that certain types of genetic engineering were extremely useful: engineering an inoffensive bacterium to produce some needed antibiotic or engineering human cell lines (in a lab setting) to produce a vaccine, for example rather than using animal based production techniques as is currently done. But he also felt that knowing when it is safe to tinker with genetic modifications required wisdom and science is notorious for its lack of wisdom. The "test-planting" of GM crops in open fields, for example, is just plain stupid in my opinion. These organisms are not naturally designed to "stay where we put them" an no one has addressed genetically engineering that out! Pollen is airborne and the side effects are already being detected, even with the limited amount of such GM crop testing currently in progress in this country. Certified organic crops, in several cases, are already showing the presence of genetic material that can only have come from airborne pollen released by GM crops in another location. This is worse than second hand smoke inhalation, by far. Deliberately implanting food crops with genes for artificial pesticides? Sheesh! It's a guarantee that natural ecosystems are going to incorporate all of this stuff into wild and other "unintended" gene pools, at which point the interactions are off the scale into infinity. That's just plain common sense, methinks.
 
I'm hearing all sorts of ominous reports that using these GM crops as feed in raising food animals is causing nasty side effects, including unexplained miscarriages and deaths; that most species of farm animals can detect (!)(How???) which feed is genetically modified and when given a choice, they avoid the GM feed completely; and that some of these transgenic genes are finding their way into fetuses of pregnant animals, etc, etc... I'm not sure as yet how solid such reports are scientifically, so I'm looking into that, but the sheer volume of such reports from so many different sources tends to add weight to the reports' veracity, in my eyes.
 
It was all of this that made my father stop short of writing down what he had developed, conceptually, on the notion of creating a living system artificially. He was sure such information would be misused and abused. Given all of what science does not know about these systems that we are tinkering with in various ways, it certainly seems that we ought to err on the side of caution. I personally believe laws ought to prevent these kinds of open tests in farm fields, among other things. But the laws haven't caught up with the technologies yet. This is one reason why I've chosen to work to get my father's theoretical ideas "out there" and accessible-- the relational quality of an organization-based theoretical foundation, which is one description of Rosennean Complexity Theory, would automatically guarantee these genetic engineers that what they're doing is going to have unforeseeable side effects in unforeseeable directions.
 
Judith