Re: The Goal of this List

[Ayten Aydin <***>]

John, K

As a response to your query, I believe a parallel venue to pursue a wider
discussion will be very useful. It will also prevent ongoing discussions on
RR theories and their wider applications from being diluted. They may alone
can take us beyond the initial aim of the list manager. The same list
manager is giving us, however, useful, certainly unintentional, hints for a
possible new and wider line of discussions.  I would say linked to each
other.

Wider discussions on the one side and more specific discussions on the RR's
realm may strengthen both in their content towards reaching their goals. Can
we not perhaps take the Freeman j. Dyson review of Brian Greene's latest
book on "The Fabric of the Cosmos" as a starting point for wider
discussions, gradually expanding the discussions on the Greene's book
proper. This review has been brought to our attention, at least to mine,  by
Tim. I find the review very balanced and respectful to the other's somewhat
alien ideas. This is also a good example and a mature attitude on his part.
The crux of the matter in Dyson's above-cited review, as Tim has also
highlighted in his post, is that 'the territory of new sciences outside the
narrow domain of theoretical physics, will continue to expand'.
...'chemistry and biology and neurology will continue to advance and make
new fundemental discoveries. In this process RR's theories may find their
proper entry points as well. There may also be other ideas to contest or
confirm in due course. No one loses, all gain.

I sense that we may derive more benefit by being a party to both wider and
more specific discussions keeping the latter's bias position in mind, so
that we may not feel blocked or limited in expressing our views finding
another suitable outlet for them and thus we may help let the truth come
out. The success may be amazing!

'The world on a string' by Freeman J. Dyson may be a good starting, rather
restarting point, not certainly the only one, for your original idea for
your list.

My best,
Ayten

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kineman" <***>
To: <***>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: The Goal of this List


> Would another list venue be appropriate to pursue a wider discussion?
>
> I toyed with starting a list associated with the "What is Life/Living"
> ISSS SIG but didn't get a critical mass going, surely due to my absent
> management of it, but also I didn't have it technically set up right
> with an archive and so on. I could correct that. Over the 5 years or so
> that the SIG has existed we have explored (in papers) a wide range of
> ideas without constraints. I personally tend to represent concepts
> derived from Rosen, but I have never made that a constraint either in
> the SIG or on the list, but I'd like to begin drawing some threads
> together and thinking about modes of synthesis. Right now the list is
> still active as ***, but conversation has essentially dried
> up. There were only about 5 members starting it up last Fall. It seems
> being too open ended is also problem because then there is little common
> ground, but if the goal is to relate and synthesize multiple views,
> perhaps that could be sufficiently productive to keep things going. Any
> thoughts?
>
> John K
>
> James N Rose wrote:
>
> >Robert Rosen, as any good innovative thinker,
> >was well aware of the conceptual alternatives
> >to his/their posited ideas.  They are encountered
> >when alive, and become afixed when the person passes.
> >
> >Typically that is taken for granted.
> >
> >In this (list) situation its subtly problematic.
> >
> >For the expansive notion of natural systems RR
> >presented, all possibles are requisitely
> >open to be encountered, considered, engaged,
> >and generate intereffective results.
> >
> >Anything less signifies a limited model and incompleteness.
> >
> >The list, even Judith who represents RR's voice and mind,
> >even Tim as RRconcepts champion, are subject to the
> >diminishment of his not being here.
> >
> >Howard P saw this forum as a place to continue the
> >conceptual differential debates he had with Bob
> >while he was alive.  It isn't.
> >
> >I myself initially saw this forum as a place to
> >'converse' with the creative notions RR loosed
> >into the world and springboard/correlate my own
> >novel exploration towards a Grand Global Systems
> >Theory.  It isn't.  I'm fortunate to be here, close
> >to the fount of RR and his concepts, but anything -
> >any notions, alternatives to RR etc. are -my- domain
> >to pursue elsewhere, not advance on this list.
> >
> >I have much to offer in the way of interesting
> >alternative akin-concepts to RR's.  But this is the
> >RRosen list, not anyone else's.  It isn't a general
> >open forum to look for natural-alternatives to RR
> >perspectives or framings.  Its a forum to keep
> >RR's work and clear specificities intact, and keep
> >clarity that is true to his living sentiments and
> >perceptions.
> >
> >Judith wrote me early on that she thought her father
> >would have enjoyed talking with me, discussing ideas,
> >based on the ideas I wrote when I joined in here.
> >I value that review, am saddened by my not having
> >made contact when he was with us, and respect him to the
> >point of -not- using this list to surrogate it for
> >him in some faux post-mortem dialogue.
> >
> >RR's concepts are no longer open to amendment (albeit
> >possible 'improvement').  They are definitely affirmed
> >against any further disputation where he -might-
> >have concurred with arguments and amended his views.
> >
> >The goal of this list - is to advance the notion
> >of openness and connectivity and adaptivity - while
> >not being morphable beyond RR and his cache of
> >concepts as they were during his life.
> >
> >It seems a disparity, but its not.   Its the
> >status of a firm worldview, generous in its
> >scope and words but cast in concepts that
> >now remain as they are - exactly.
> >
> >Expressive, visionary, important.
> >
> >Jamie Rose
> >Ceptual Institute
> >
> >
>
> --
> © 2004 John J. Kineman
> all rights reserved
>