Re: The value of Rosennean Complexity, applied...

[Tim Gwinn <***>]

JohnK,

Thanks for the link to the presentation. I have a couple of remarks. First,
I would disagree with the diagram on Slide 2, comparing structure and
function. There is not necessarily a correlation between structure and
function, such that one would have a modeling relationship between the
physical structural organization and a model of functional organization. To
use an example from Rosen, metabolism, as a function, cuts across myriad
structures in an organism.

On Slide #4: I believe the name is "Alfred Korzybski", not "Alexander
Korzybsky". Also, Korzybski had a concept about language and "maps" as being
"self-reflexive", which I think may akin to what you are describing in that
slide, and might possibly be useful. (I haven't read Korzybski for a long
time, so I'm kinda hazy on that.)

I really liked the animation in Slide #6, with all the maps flying across.
:)  In your text on #6, you say "the best we can hope for is to have a way
to relate the many maps needed to describe a complex reality...". I think
you bring up a central problem: the problem with a complex system is that
the many models are incommensurable. If we could relate them formally,
algorithmically, we could have a single "largest model". But, we can't do
that. Even using the planar maps analogy from Rosen for switching between
multiple dynamical models (a kind of "data-driven" process) as a way to
relate simple models for the system, I think we still cannot (or, at least,
don't yet know how to) relate the noncomputable (e.g., relational) models to
that picture.

Regards,
Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of John
> Kineman
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: ***
> Subject: Re: The value of Rosennean Complexity, applied...
>
>
> Sory for all these versions trying to get it right. You can also go to
> www.nexial.org/Rosen and get an index of the two files.
>
> -------------------
>
> Well, even the .pdf didn't make it throught the size filter, so you have
> to go to the URL to see these slides. I put it there in powerpoint and
> in .pdf so you can read the words more ealisy in the pdf but still see
> the animations in powerpoint.
>
> ------------------
> Hi all, this didn't get through the size filter because of the
> powerpoint attachement. I produced it as a pdf so you can read the
> words. The powerpoint is located at:
> www.nexial.org/Rosen/mapping_complexity.ppt
>
> just go there and open it or download it, then you can see the
> animations in the slide show format.
>
> -----------------------
>
> Tim & list,
>
> Its amazing how close these comments by Tim are to my own thinking. Take
> a look at the powerpoint slides in the attachment. I extracted these
> from a recent talk to USGS. It was how I decided to communicate the idea
> of complexity to a group of GIS people who are used to making maps that
> they consider rather definite representations of reality. Please excuse
> some of the liberal application of the modeling relation idea for the
> purposes of communication. I believe the relation can be constructed in
> many ways, depending on how one defines a system, so the variants of the
> idea I hope are philosophically acceptable. In any case, it told a good
> story that I think many in the room of 150 people heard. There were two
> main points. One was that "functions are real" - see the example of the
> US-Mexico border. The second was just the same as what Tim says here, we
> can start thinking about the entire modeling (or mapping) enterprise in
> a different way. Instead of cranking out definitive representations of
> things we design for adaptability and multiplicity, and then make the
> system conform to the many different ways one may need to represent the
> system. This would directly support Holling's adaptive management
> strategy too. So, much of what I'm promoting these days is "adaptive
> mapping."
>
> Note: I couldn't get the file size down any more in the attachment it is
> 3.5MB so it might take some time to download if you don't have a
> fast line.
>
>