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Re: "Natural Law" in Rosennean Theory



What he proposed was to enlarge the definition of "material world" to include causal agents that are "non-physical" or not made up of "particles" (matter) but are still part of material reality. That's what he meant by "natural world" (not to be confused with terms like "supernatural" or religious or "spiritual", etc).
 
So, you read it right, Tim. Relational analysis would admit the existence of something that has no physical form but acts as a causal agent upon things that do. Namely, a relationship between parts of a complex system or a relationship between relationships, and so on. "Conventional" analysis would not accept the existence of a relationship between parts as a real "thing". Conventional approaches would say that the viewer is imputing a relationship to inanimate parts.
 
Judith
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] "Natural Law" in Rosennean Theory

Judith,
 
I need a little help here, because read his work rather differently. Instead of the 'material world' being a subset of a larger universe, I read it that what he proposed was enlarging the notion of 'material world' to include what would normally be considered 'non-physical':
    "The radical departure of relational analysis from conventional analysis should now be evident. However, there is nothing in the relational strategy that is unphysical, in the sense of "ideal" physics. The organization of a natural system (and in particular, of a biological organism) is at least as much a part of its material reality as the specific particles that constitute it at a given time, perhaps indeed more so." [LI 119, ital. orig.]
And the quote I used the other day:
"One of the main sources of referents, meanings, and truths expressible in language is what I have called the external world - the material world of cognizable events, which we observe and measure, and with which science deals." [EL 156]
 
As for "natural world", I have seen the term used intermittently, but I cannot recall him ever defining it anywhere.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 12:48 PM
To: ***
Subject: "Natural Law" in Rosennean Theory

It occurs to me that if members of the group are going to do any kind of philosophical analysis of Rosennean Complexity, the place to start may be with my father's notion of "The Natural World" (as compared to the "material world") and "Natural Law".
 
There has been some confusion, even here on the list, about what my father meant by terms like reality, material world, material existence, and his use of the word "Natural" when applied to scientific laws or constants, etc. He believed that the relationships that exist in a complex system, which have no material weight themselves and are therefore rejected by reductionist approaches, are every bit as real as the particles that DO have material weight. He believed that the relationships are a crucial aspect of the organization of the system. He believed that the relationships exist as part of something larger than material reality-- which he then defined as "The Natural World". AND, he felt that we could learn about these things using SCIENCE because these things behave according to universal constraints that are built in. Those constraints are what he referred to as "Natural Law". The material world is only a subset of the larger universe, and he actually came out and said so. This is why he was accused of being a mystic rather than a scientist. But what he said was that the Natural World is knowable by science, we just have to develop new methods of approach. Causality was the logic by which he arrived at many of these conclusions. If these relationships are having causal effects, that is the proof that they exist. When one has eliminated all other possibilities, the one that's left is your answer.
 
Incidentally, he felt that consciousness was one such "non-material" reality that exists as part of the Natural world. In making that statement, he meant that consciousness is something real, which exists according to Natural Laws, and is therefore knowable by science.
 
Judith