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Re: Rosen as philosopher...Kabbalah



 Some thoughts on ROSEN as scientist, thinker and mystic:
 
To say: Rosen was a thinker covers already in all. I believe his mind could not simply be confined  to a specific field, be it analytical-scientific on the one pole and mystical on the other pole. Already he showed this potential when making jumps in the process of settling within his professional life. If 'settled' is the right word in his case?. If we start with 'he was a biologist'. Biology is so vast. It depends on the biologist to decide where to stop, at the analytical or scientifically theoretical, philosophical levels or go beyond into the infinity, there comes the atraction to mathematics. Your father, to my mind, was on the way to go beyond, but his physical resources could not shoulder the weight. Moreover he was alone, as it is normally so for ascetics. We, as a group, with a healthy breath, are not alone. Part of us will have feet on the ground. Rosen through Rosen the daughter, (and the mother of his ideas) offers to share his soul with us.
 
Judith suggests to make 'a philosophical analysis of Rosen's work'. Rosen, the father, was searching the language suitable to express his ideas. He wanted to reach to the creator's language, in this context. To my mind he was looking for artistic forms fitting well to capture his elusive ideas. I am sure there he saw the real impossibilty of this pellegrinage as the ideas are so fluid and hard to capture and nailed down. They cannot be stopped to feel good after. Here is the difference between a common human being and the mystic. We can, however, be in between and flow together in our virtual river supporting each other and by keeping sides thouching the 'terra ferma' not to get drown as a whole.
 
Judith is ready to share her father's work to be interpreted in many ways keeping Rosen as the spiritual leader acting from where he is, with no capacity to directly influence or to direct the process. These material may trigger our inner strengths to come out and join our more rigid positions to make a balanced whole, though different in depth and content for each. At this stage it may be easier to start with his theories, more accesible for scientists; his philosophies, more attractive for thinkers; and his research into metaphysics,  which may fascinate some of us. This may mean three-tier sub-forums to go on simultaneously but perviously. The work in these lines could start, however, as the material is made available piece by piece perhaps by Judith (as she picks and decide on the timing and suitabality or pick randomly) to all of us on line, if practicable.
 
Aydin
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: Rosen as philosopher...Kabbalah

I agree with Kevin that there is a great deal to be gained from a philosophical analysis of the scope of my father's work-- as in
"Rosennean Complexity/Implications/Applications".  It is interesting to me  to hear that Robert Rosen wouldn't be considered a Philosopher (peer) by other Philosophers-- Would you believe that he was often accused by Scientists (experimentalists mostly, reductionists all) of engaging in philosophy rather than science? I agree with the designation Kevin makes: My father was a biologist. He approached the science theoretically rather than experimentally. And he had a deep interest in Philosophy and philosophies. In short, he was a thinker.
 
One of the things I pulled out of a box this weekend was a bunch of written reference material about different areas of mysticism through history. Kabbalah is one name given to extremely ancient Jewish philosophical mysticism. It's a name that, like "complexity", has been used differently (and abused as well) so many times over the ages that there are many deeply entrenched misunderstandings in Western Philosophy of what kabbalah "means" or how to define it. I remember my father defining it thusly:
 
"The Kabbalists believed that all aspects of creation have a symbolic representation, as in a mathematical representation or a proper 'name' that was what God called it. If the name that God used was somehow figured out, the power of creation itself was in that name. In other words, they believed that if they could figure out the proper name, as in the proper symbolic representation of any given thing, then they would also understand why and how that thing came to be. Mathematics was seen as a universal language because it was obvious to humanity that there was always a distinct mathematical component to the universe. Mathematics clearly applies to all of creation in some way, they theorized, therefore it must be the language of the Creator."
 
He was fascinated by the parallels between that set of beliefs and the set belonging to reductionistic experimentalist science. Both sets of beliefs are intent on learning about the essence of things-- but the approach to try and do so ended up basically in an attempt to reduce everything down to a  number! He said he thought there was a lot of real truth in what Kabbalah had developed, just as there are times when a reductionistic approach in science is both useful and proper. In Kabbalah, the notion that there are underlying languages that are applicable to all areas of human inquiry about the universe and about ourselves was what he saw as being of value. It certainly is one way to describe what Rosennean Complexity ended up being, I'd say!
 
In any case, I would welcome a philosophical analysis of my father's work. In fact, it looks to me to be a very rich ground for such an undertaking.
 
Judith
 
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Rosen as philosopher...


Tim,
 
Just a few brief replies to your comments.  I wish I had more time, but my term is looking to be very busy!  Forgive the ugly parsing below, ...
Old Kevin:
 statements.  This view came under strong criticism in the late 50s and early 60s, and a movement emerged that sought to define scientific theories in terms of the mathematical models that define the classes of natural systems studied by a given theory.  This model-theoretic tradition, or "semantic" tradition (as contrasted with the "syntactic" approach of the logical positivists) of understanding scientific theories, turns attention away from the particularities of the formal language within which a theory is formulated, to the mathematical structures that are defined within a given language. 
 
Thus, for example, Newtonian mechanics can be understood in terms of one or another formulation of Newton's laws of motion, but a model-theoretic approach would focus instead on the class of formal models defined by these laws, e.g. the mathematical structures embedded in Newtonian state space .   One currently popular version of this model-theoretic approach to scientific theories is based on state-space models (van Fraassen, Giere, Suppe, Lloyd, Thomson) - virtually all of the philosophy of physics done these days involves analysis of the state space structure of physical theories.. Another model-based approach is based on structures defined as the extensions of set-theoretic predicates (this is inspired by the Bourbaki approach to foundations of math; Suppes, Stegmuller, Sneed, Da Costa and French, ...).   
 
 
Tim: But all these state-based approaches inherently limit themselves to a capacity to describe only simple systems, do they not?
 
    New Kevin: In Rosen's terms, sure.  I was pointing to a similarity in the way that Rosen often describes the physical content of scientific theories, and the way that contemporary philosophers of science do.  That is, when he's discussing classical or quantum physics, he tends to discuss it terms of the mathematical structures that encode entailment relations.  That's a very "semantic approach" way of analyzing the content of physical theories.
 
 
Old Kevin: Another connection is with various forms of metaphysical and epistemological structuralism (metaphysical structuralism asserts that all that exists, is structure; epistemological structuralism asserts that all we can know of the world is structure).  George Kampis noted in his review of Life Itself that Rosen had strong affinities with structuralist traditions.  This is certainly the way I read Rosen, too.   
 
Tim: Maybe I misundertand structuralism, but I read Rosen somewhat differently. Primarily based upon what is in Anticipatory Systems, where he says that our most basic knowledge of the world are sensory impressions or 'percepts'. It is then our minds which take an active role in organizing these percepts, in establishing relations between the percepts - relations in the material world are not something we perceive directly. So that what we know (if we know anything) are the sensory impressions, and that relations between percepts are of a different order: they are creations of the mind or "working hypotheses" we impute back to the material world. [AS 46]
 
So, it strikes me that although Rosen emphasizes structural aspects (entailment structures, functional vs structural organization), it does not seem to me that he considers structure as being the sole, or even the most fundamental, epistemological entities.
 
New Kevin:  That's true, I shouldn't have implied that Rosen is a thorough-going philosophical structuralist.  As a biologist investigating the question "what is life?", however, his answer is strongly oriented in the structuralist direction, wouldn't you say? 
 
 
 
 Old Kevin: There's a whole tradition in the philosophy of mathematics that goes by the name "structuralism" too (one is known as "category-theoretic structuralism"), and though this is distinct from metaphysical and epistemological structuralism, there are lots of points of potential contact.  I'm particulary interested in this stuff, and how it can be used to develop an interpretive framework for complex systems theories (Rosennean and otherwise).
 
Tim: I very briefly looked up "category-theoretic structuralism" on the web. It seemed to be largely concerned with trying to use category theory in a foundational role for mathematics, based on a structuralist view of mathematics. Can you speak more about this "interpretive framework"?
 
 
New Kevin: Structuralist philosophies of mathematics do try to give an account of the foundations of mathematics, but they also try to give philosophical accounts of the metaphysics and epistemology of mathematical objects.  What are numbers? vector spaces? functions?  How do we come to know them, and what is the status of this knowledge?  Set theory and category theory have been presented as a unifying language for representing all of mathematics, but philosophical mathematical structuralism has broader ambitions.
 
One of the topics that philosophies of mathematics want to explain is the relation of mathematics to the physical world, and the applicability of mathematics in science.  All I can say here is that different philosophies of math offer different accounts of these relationships, and that even within structuralist philosophies of mathematics, there is more than one account.  One of the things I'd like to do in the essay I'm planning to write is investigate how Rosen's answers to these questions compare with these other accounts. 
 
 
 
Tim: " I have also been intending to write something relating Rosennean ideas to some of those of Nancy Cartwright. Are these the kinds of relations to existing thinkers that you are speaking of (with the proviso that the level and depth of my writings are most likely substandard for academic philosophers)?"
 
Old Kevin: I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.  Cartwright holds lots of views on lots of subjects.  For example, she analyses scientific theories in terms of their mathematical models too, and she likes to talk about the complex tangle of causal relations in the world, and how physical theories abstract away from this complexity.  That's not unlike Rosen.  But she differs from Rosen in several respects, I think; she believes, for example, that science reveals the real, true causal powers of substances in the world (she's a realist about what she calls causal "capacities"), the reality that lies behind the structural relations described by models.  I've never read Rosen as being this kind of metaphysical realist about properties or substances.  Rosen is an Aristotelian in terms of his account of theoretical explanation, but not, as far I can tell, in terms of his metaphysics.  Cartwright is an Aristotelian in terms of the metaphysics of real substances and their properties.    
 
Tim: I'd have to go back and look at Cartwright's The Dappled World and her older books again, to recall exactly what struck me about her. It was many months ago that I was considering this. I recall her use of nomological machines, which struck me as akin to a model in a modeling relation. Her "capacities" were interesting in that I felt there was some relationship with Rosen's concern with what he called the "gravitational" aspects of a system, rather than the "inertial" aspects. I also thought the ceteris paribus stipulation she emphasized were interesting. I forget if there were other notions of hers that interested me.
 
I agree that their metaphysics differ, and that the above similarities are not of the kind that necessarily support each other. But I am not really interested in authors that say the exact same or similar thing, as if truth were proportional to the quantity of one's supporting citations. I am more interested in whether the differences in Cartwright's ideas can enrich/enlarge the Rosennean view.
 
 
New Kevin: That's very much my own attitude to comparing/contrasting Rosen with other philosophers. 
 
 
 
Tim:  I'm not sure who that peer group for Rosen would be - even today. Biologists? Not likely. Category theorists? No. Physicists? Should be, but not. Systems theorists? Doubtful. To me, philosophers of science seem a likely group. But I wonder if Rosen would be considered enough of a philosopher of science to taken seriously as a peer.
 
 
 
 New Kevin:  In my experience, Rosen is regarded as something of a god among systems theory types, even when they're not doing systems theory in the way he might have wanted.  But the natural community to appeal t to promote interest in Rosen's work, is, I think, philosophers, and philosophers of science in particular.
 
Now, Rosen wouldn't be regarded as a "peer" philosopher (if I can use that term in a non-elitist way), but he could be regarded as a scientist whose work had strong bearing on philosophical issues, and who tried to address them in ways he thought appropriate in his work, and who may have insights that stimulate new directions of thinking on classical philosophical topics.  Einstein is a good example of someone whose work had deep philosophical import, and who wrote on philosophical topics, but who was not regarded as a peer "philosopher" by philosophers (or himself!  Abraham Pais, a physicist and biographer of Einstein, once was asked whether he thought Einstein was a philosopher.  He replied, "At his best, no.").   Same for David Bohm, Kurt Godel, Niels Bohr, etc.  Or going back, Newton, Darwin, etc. 
 
Now, the advantage that these guys have is that their names are associated with scientific developments or theories that made an impact on their respective fields, so there is a natural interest in their views on foundational topics.  Rosen doesn't have that advantage. 
 
 
Gotta run.  Thanks!
 
 
Kevin