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Re: Rosen as philosopher...




Tim,
 
Just a few brief replies to your comments.  I wish I had more time, but my term is looking to be very busy!  Forgive the ugly parsing below, ...
Old Kevin:
 statements.  This view came under strong criticism in the late 50s and early 60s, and a movement emerged that sought to define scientific theories in terms of the mathematical models that define the classes of natural systems studied by a given theory.  This model-theoretic tradition, or "semantic" tradition (as contrasted with the "syntactic" approach of the logical positivists) of understanding scientific theories, turns attention away from the particularities of the formal language within which a theory is formulated, to the mathematical structures that are defined within a given language. 
 
Thus, for example, Newtonian mechanics can be understood in terms of one or another formulation of Newton's laws of motion, but a model-theoretic approach would focus instead on the class of formal models defined by these laws, e.g. the mathematical structures embedded in Newtonian state space .   One currently popular version of this model-theoretic approach to scientific theories is based on state-space models (van Fraassen, Giere, Suppe, Lloyd, Thomson) - virtually all of the philosophy of physics done these days involves analysis of the state space structure of physical theories.. Another model-based approach is based on structures defined as the extensions of set-theoretic predicates (this is inspired by the Bourbaki approach to foundations of math; Suppes, Stegmuller, Sneed, Da Costa and French, ...).   
 
 
Tim: But all these state-based approaches inherently limit themselves to a capacity to describe only simple systems, do they not?
 
    New Kevin: In Rosen's terms, sure.  I was pointing to a similarity in the way that Rosen often describes the physical content of scientific theories, and the way that contemporary philosophers of science do.  That is, when he's discussing classical or quantum physics, he tends to discuss it terms of the mathematical structures that encode entailment relations.  That's a very "semantic approach" way of analyzing the content of physical theories.
 
 
Old Kevin: Another connection is with various forms of metaphysical and epistemological structuralism (metaphysical structuralism asserts that all that exists, is structure; epistemological structuralism asserts that all we can know of the world is structure).  George Kampis noted in his review of Life Itself that Rosen had strong affinities with structuralist traditions.  This is certainly the way I read Rosen, too.   
 
Tim: Maybe I misundertand structuralism, but I read Rosen somewhat differently. Primarily based upon what is in Anticipatory Systems, where he says that our most basic knowledge of the world are sensory impressions or 'percepts'. It is then our minds which take an active role in organizing these percepts, in establishing relations between the percepts - relations in the material world are not something we perceive directly. So that what we know (if we know anything) are the sensory impressions, and that relations between percepts are of a different order: they are creations of the mind or "working hypotheses" we impute back to the material world. [AS 46]
 
So, it strikes me that although Rosen emphasizes structural aspects (entailment structures, functional vs structural organization), it does not seem to me that he considers structure as being the sole, or even the most fundamental, epistemological entities.
 
New Kevin:  That's true, I shouldn't have implied that Rosen is a thorough-going philosophical structuralist.  As a biologist investigating the question "what is life?", however, his answer is strongly oriented in the structuralist direction, wouldn't you say? 
 
 
 
 Old Kevin: There's a whole tradition in the philosophy of mathematics that goes by the name "structuralism" too (one is known as "category-theoretic structuralism"), and though this is distinct from metaphysical and epistemological structuralism, there are lots of points of potential contact.  I'm particulary interested in this stuff, and how it can be used to develop an interpretive framework for complex systems theories (Rosennean and otherwise).
 
Tim: I very briefly looked up "category-theoretic structuralism" on the web. It seemed to be largely concerned with trying to use category theory in a foundational role for mathematics, based on a structuralist view of mathematics. Can you speak more about this "interpretive framework"?
 
 
New Kevin: Structuralist philosophies of mathematics do try to give an account of the foundations of mathematics, but they also try to give philosophical accounts of the metaphysics and epistemology of mathematical objects.  What are numbers? vector spaces? functions?  How do we come to know them, and what is the status of this knowledge?  Set theory and category theory have been presented as a unifying language for representing all of mathematics, but philosophical mathematical structuralism has broader ambitions.
 
One of the topics that philosophies of mathematics want to explain is the relation of mathematics to the physical world, and the applicability of mathematics in science.  All I can say here is that different philosophies of math offer different accounts of these relationships, and that even within structuralist philosophies of mathematics, there is more than one account.  One of the things I'd like to do in the essay I'm planning to write is investigate how Rosen's answers to these questions compare with these other accounts. 
 
 
 
Tim: " I have also been intending to write something relating Rosennean ideas to some of those of Nancy Cartwright. Are these the kinds of relations to existing thinkers that you are speaking of (with the proviso that the level and depth of my writings are most likely substandard for academic philosophers)?"
 
Old Kevin: I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.  Cartwright holds lots of views on lots of subjects.  For example, she analyses scientific theories in terms of their mathematical models too, and she likes to talk about the complex tangle of causal relations in the world, and how physical theories abstract away from this complexity.  That's not unlike Rosen.  But she differs from Rosen in several respects, I think; she believes, for example, that science reveals the real, true causal powers of substances in the world (she's a realist about what she calls causal "capacities"), the reality that lies behind the structural relations described by models.  I've never read Rosen as being this kind of metaphysical realist about properties or substances.  Rosen is an Aristotelian in terms of his account of theoretical explanation, but not, as far I can tell, in terms of his metaphysics.  Cartwright is an Aristotelian in terms of the metaphysics of real substances and their properties.    
 
Tim: I'd have to go back and look at Cartwright's The Dappled World and her older books again, to recall exactly what struck me about her. It was many months ago that I was considering this. I recall her use of nomological machines, which struck me as akin to a model in a modeling relation. Her "capacities" were interesting in that I felt there was some relationship with Rosen's concern with what he called the "gravitational" aspects of a system, rather than the "inertial" aspects. I also thought the ceteris paribus stipulation she emphasized were interesting. I forget if there were other notions of hers that interested me.
 
I agree that their metaphysics differ, and that the above similarities are not of the kind that necessarily support each other. But I am not really interested in authors that say the exact same or similar thing, as if truth were proportional to the quantity of one's supporting citations. I am more interested in whether the differences in Cartwright's ideas can enrich/enlarge the Rosennean view.
 
 
New Kevin: That's very much my own attitude to comparing/contrasting Rosen with other philosophers. 
 
 
 
Tim:  I'm not sure who that peer group for Rosen would be - even today. Biologists? Not likely. Category theorists? No. Physicists? Should be, but not. Systems theorists? Doubtful. To me, philosophers of science seem a likely group. But I wonder if Rosen would be considered enough of a philosopher of science to taken seriously as a peer.
 
 
 
 New Kevin:  In my experience, Rosen is regarded as something of a god among systems theory types, even when they're not doing systems theory in the way he might have wanted.  But the natural community to appeal t to promote interest in Rosen's work, is, I think, philosophers, and philosophers of science in particular.
 
Now, Rosen wouldn't be regarded as a "peer" philosopher (if I can use that term in a non-elitist way), but he could be regarded as a scientist whose work had strong bearing on philosophical issues, and who tried to address them in ways he thought appropriate in his work, and who may have insights that stimulate new directions of thinking on classical philosophical topics.  Einstein is a good example of someone whose work had deep philosophical import, and who wrote on philosophical topics, but who was not regarded as a peer "philosopher" by philosophers (or himself!  Abraham Pais, a physicist and biographer of Einstein, once was asked whether he thought Einstein was a philosopher.  He replied, "At his best, no.").   Same for David Bohm, Kurt Godel, Niels Bohr, etc.  Or going back, Newton, Darwin, etc. 
 
Now, the advantage that these guys have is that their names are associated with scientific developments or theories that made an impact on their respective fields, so there is a natural interest in their views on foundational topics.  Rosen doesn't have that advantage. 
 
 
Gotta run.  Thanks!
 
 
Kevin