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Re: Selling Rosenean theory to the University



HI, Judith,
I was impressed with your two messages I picked up among too many in my incoming mail. What others said on them I do not yet know. While these days some bewilderment continues around the Rosenean spirit, I admired your courage for your intention to give it a new and free birth. His spirit will empower you. Otherwise Rosenean ideas will be squeezed and belittled sooner or later if it is sold to university, in a real or metaphorical sense, before they see the light once more. Not everybody has breath in their body like you have - I positively envy and empathise with you in that - a fully fledged Rosenean spirit and perception. Tendencies nowadays are more in the direction of reductionism with its nature of quick pay-off, rather than systemic which is, per force, complex.and requires more means to express itself fully than the simplistic approach. I am glad to hear that you are equipped with such multiple means at your service together with the rosenean soul. It is also very pertinent that you now feel ready to put your facilities to work for the dissemination of Rosenean spirit to be picked up whoever can perceive. WE all know that this was the method used all the way in the ancient times as well as throughout the historical periods until our time as the best way to make sink complex ideas into the minds of people, think of Greek tragedies; Mesopotamian epic poems; Shakespear; Goya; Goethe; Tolstoy; Mozart and as most recent examples Holywood films, such as Commander The Master; The Last Samurai etc.to cite a few.  People with ability to get the gist and differing levels of emotions out of them and they are not the same anymore. Where as the products and ideas of the reductionist approach are per force limited in content with their limited end purposes. They may or not serve the overall purpose of life in general, the humanity in particular which seeks happiness as its highest priority.
 
You are now the mother of your father's spirit and ideas which silently belong to many others, even to the whole humanity waiting to be born. You cannot carry this fulness for long. The are now to be born in many forms and numbers. This is a quicker way than struggling within a relatively closed and at times bewildered groups, though willing to make their environment more pervious to let new spirit to come in. Now with J. Kineman' s renewed and clear intention a more comprehensive network could be created, why not call it "Rosenean Network" with an appropriate interpretation to help the Network's elements to sense their own 'raison d'etre' within the same umbrella spirit. The work and hopefully the success of this network is important also to effect a mental shift within the ISSS in general.
 
I am already converted to this approach with an intuitional urge while exercising my profession (civil engineering) thinking that what ever we do should be in concordance with the happiness of human beings as well as with the whole living and non-living systemsi,i.e environment let aside others beyond our planet, which we have also started to disturb in the name of scientific advancement within purposes possibly blind to humanity's happiness as a whole.I therefore formally and informally studied humanities including anthropology, philosophy, history of ideas, history of art, music etc. Plus, contrary, to what my profession suggest I am female. This way I considered myself better fit to operate professionaly than earlier times with so many unanswered queries in mind. I hope, I have expressed myself clearly as the first, English is not my mother tounge and the second, the speed of ideas cannot be quickly dealt with using a common language. It needs art as its environment, as the art is the mother of and greater than the science. Their link should never be broken as very explicitely cried out by C.P. Snow in his book "Two Cultures".
 
I wish you a very successful and productive year as the mother of your father's spirit.
My best,
Aydin
----- Original Message -----
To: ***
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:56 AM
Subject: Selling Rosenean theory to the University

 I have been aware for a long time, long before my father died, that his work would remain mostly obscured by the way it was written and presented. As I've already pointed out; this didn't cause him a moment's concern because he couldn't have cared less how it was taken, or even whether it was taken at all (or seen).... I respected his total commitment to the work itself, and his amazing internal self-sufficiency and self-directedness. But I was personally frustrated by the injustice embodied by the facts-- that his work was labeled inaccurately as either mathematical biology (listed under M, for Math) or as Systems Theory, etc.... where it would never be seen by biologists or philosophers.... Plus the fact that his insistence on using so much mathematical notation in his illustrations (as examples of the ideas he was putting forward) would automatically make a majority of browsers at the bookstore close the book and put it back on the shelf because of the appearance of a need for expertise in mathematics in order to understand the concepts. The reason those things bothered me is that his ideas make so much sense to me, and it struck me as a deep injustice in the fabric of the cosmos that the ideas would simply pass unnoticed by the people most wanting to find them, unless something was done to remediate the "camouflage" that the ideas were unwittingly wrapped up in.
 
When he died in 1998, my father left his work to me. His words to me on the subject, when he had mentioned that he had written his will in that way, were; "You don't have to DO anything with it, Kid. I don't need you to spend your time on my work or to spend your energy on breathing "life" into it. Either it will have a life of its own based on its own merits or it won't. If the work doesn't develop its own life, it probably wasn't meant to anyway." I envied his equanimity over the prospect of his life's work just disappearing! That's what happens when you spend your life doing what you love and loving it for very personal reasons. He was a lucky guy, my Dad. But there is no way I'm going to let his life's work languish in obscurity, knowing what I know about how applicable these ideas are to just about every avenue of human thought and endeavor. I spent a great deal of time hanging out with my father over my lifetime. In my adult years, more of that time was inclusive of his work-- both as we travelled to meetings or symposia together, or as he was writing new stuff. I became a writer myself, after school, and the nature of that beast is similar no matter what kind of creative writing one is doing. Therefore, writing is something else that we shared, and it was discussed along with all the rest. The friendship that grew between my father and me (out of a combination of the deep familial bond, a similarity in basic brain wiring, a compatibility of temperaments, and a creative approach to the world) was the bedrock on which I built my own foundations. This means, among other things, that I am a writer who has a comprehensive understanding of Rosennean concepts and an even deeper and more comprehensive understanding of the man, Robert Rosen. Somehow, it just seems fated to me that I will be writing a lot of material translating my father's ideas into various other "languages", meaning the languages of philosophy, ecology, medicine, social systems, and so on... so that the ideas will finally be accessible to their many different audiences. I also encourage anyone else who expresses an interest in writing papers based on Rosennean concepts to do so, and make it their own; develop things further, create something new out of the basics that my father developed. That's what "developing a life of its own" means.
 
The first half of this year is already earmarked to be devoted, in an intensive way, to getting my father's "stuff" out there. That's the task I've set myself. (I can almost hear him reproaching me for it, too!) The second half of the year will be devoted to my own "stuff"(fiction and art)(which I am always working on, all the time, anway...).
 
Judith
 
To: ***
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Selling Rosenean theory to the University

Greetings,
 
I've been lurking on this list for a month or two now, prodded in this direction at the behest of my friend Dan Fiscus.  I thought I'd put in my two cents worth on these recent topics.  Forgive me if this ends up going all over the place.
 
A brief introduction is in order, I suppose.  I teach philosophy of science and physics at Iowa State University, but my research specialty is philosophy of ecology and philosophies of complexity.  I, Dan and another young systems ecologist, Brian Fath, have been working on an NSF grant proposal for a workshop studying the issue of holism and reductionism in theories of ecological succession.  I'll be starting a paper in the next two months or so on arguments for the noncomputability of (M,R)-systems for a philosophy of mathematics conference I'll be attending in April.  I'll be looking primarily at Rosen's papers on (M,R)-systems up to the early 70s.  This will be my first paper on Rosenean concepts, though not my first paper on the distinctive features of complex networks. 
 
I've never met anyone in any philosophy department I've worked at who has even heard of Robert Rosen, and this includes the graduate school I attended, University of Western Ontario, which has a very strong program in the philosophy of science.  Even among my fellow grad students working on issues in the philosophy of the life sciences, I was the only student who'd run across his work.  There are philosophers who are familiar with his work, of course, but they are few and far between.  I was lucky enough to be in a grad program where our resident logican was a category theorist too, and my exposure to category theory helped draw my attention to Rosen's work. 
 
On the issue of resistance in the university:
 
- were I to volunteer to give a talk on Rosen to our department, I'm sure it would be greeted with interest.  I can't imagine a philosophy department that wouldn't at least recognize the philosophical interest of Rosen's work.  I couldn't get away, though, with presenting Rosen strictly in Rosen's terms; I'd have to make an effort to connect Rosen to problems and traditions that are familiar to philosophers.  I'm aware that this can sound odd to fans of Rosen's work (how could anyone not see the relevance of his views to classic philosophical problems?), but it's a bit of myth that philosophers engage directly with archetypical philosophical problems.  It's more accurate to say that philosophers engage with philosophical problems as they have come to be understood within certain traditions, where the touchstones are lineages of persons rather than the concepts themselves (e.g. the tradition of philosophy of language identified by Frege, Russell, early Wittgenstein, Kripke, early Putnam, Boyd, ...).  It's often been said that Rosen wrote primarily for himself, and while this may be the source of much of his originality, it's also partially responsible for his failure to make any significant impact on philosophy.  Academic philosophy has been, and continues to be, a quintessentially peer-involving activity, both synchronically and diachronically.  Rosen's lack of interest in argumentative engagement with others who may be interested in similar topics, or who may have objections to his way of understanding things, is, I think, the main reason for his relative invisibility among philosophers.  Anyone who wants to bring Rosen's work to the attention of others must (as has been said before in this thread) learn to communicate with the "other" in a language that is meaningful to them. 
 
[Anecdote: I lent a copy of Life Itself to the aforementioned category theorist at my grad school, to see what he thought of it.  He said he found the book both fascinating and very difficult to get a handle on.  Now, this is a guy who thinks in morphisms and forgetful functors, and is well schooled in the history and philosophy of mathematics and logic, and is himself a holder of some unorthodox philosophical views.  And he couldn't get a handle on Rosen or the significance of his thinking for foundational issues in philosophy.  I think this is a testament not to the fact that Rosen wasn't really interested in writing for other people.  Those of us interested in Rosen really need to reconceptualize Rosen for different audiences and different contexts.] 
 
   
- On the issue of the Dawkins-Dennett/Lewontin-Gould debate as the fulcrum for philosophical discussions in biology, it's certainly false to say that philosophers of biology are solely interested in this argumentative tradition (not that I'm implying that anyone here has said that).  Discussions of "function", for example, have a long history in the philosophy of biology, and are standard topics in undergraduate and graduate textbooks.  This is certainly an area where one could offer a Rosenean alternative to the standard approaches (in fact, I've been thinking of writing something on Rosen's concept of function and making it connect with the (vast) literature on biological function).  However, outside of serious philosophy of biology, I would agree that, when philosophers (ethicists, epistemologists, political theorists, etc.) are exposed to issues in biology, they tend to be on topics related to adaptationism and altruism where the terms of the debate are framed by D-D/L-G. 
 
 
- we have a graduate program here at ISU on complex adaptive systems, and I've given the odd talk to the faculty and students who comprise this group.  Almost none of them have heard of Rosen either.  There are schools of complexity theory, as we all know.  This group is familiar with Sante Fe-style complexity theory (Kauffman, Holland, Bak, etc.) and computational complexity (polynomial, exponential, np-hard, etc.), but not much else.  They would be happy to hear something about Rosen, I'm sure.  A lot of these folks, I think, are also congenial to the notion that complexity theory may have revolutionary, paradigm-busting implications.  I'm sure I'll give a version of my (M,R)-systems paper to this group some time in the future. 
 
- I have taught, and will be teaching regularly in the future, a graduate course on the history and philosophy of ecology for the graduate program in Ecology, Evolution and Organismal Biology at ISU.  My dealings with this crowd have been cordial, but here it's become clear that there are deep resistances among many of the faculty to holistic approaches in ecology and evolutionary theory.  This is not atypical for departments of biology and ecology in the US, though.  They are, however, quite to open to presenting the debate between holists and reductionists as an effective teaching tool for students, and as an important component of the intellectual history of ecology and the life sciences.  So, in a course like this I can get away with a lot more than would an actual professor of ecology teaching a course in ecological restoration or whatnot.   
 
 
Ah, time's up for me.  Judith, I'd appreciate a copy of those Rosen biographical materials that you're offering to list members, if you would be so kind.  Thanks,
 
 
Kevin
 
 
Kevin deLaplante
Assistant Professor of Philosophy
Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies
Iowa State University