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Re: Selling Rosenean theory to the University



Hi Kevin,
See interposed comments below.
Regards,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Kevin de Laplante
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:47 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Selling Rosenean theory to the University

Hi Tim,
 
"Are there any particular traditions that stand out to you as ones that either resonate with, or are diametrically opposite to, Rosennean concepts?"
 
That's a good question, and one that might take a lot of space to answer as I'd like (space I can't really afford, given some pending deadlines!). 
 
There are some obvious ones that come to mind, for me, in terms of resonance.  In the philosophy of science there's a tradition of theorizing about the structure of scientific theories.  The logical positivists in the first half of the 20th century argued that scientific theories should be regarded as partially interpreted logical calculi, i.e. as sets of statements written in the language of first-order predicate logic, with the meanings of scientific terms defined by their relation to observation  
 
 
"The world is the totality of facts......."     Who doesn't love the Tractatus!! :)
 
 statements.  This view came under strong criticism in the late 50s and early 60s, and a movement emerged that sought to define scientific theories in terms of the mathematical models that define the classes of natural systems studied by a given theory.  This model-theoretic tradition, or "semantic" tradition (as contrasted with the "syntactic" approach of the logical positivists) of understanding scientific theories, turns attention away from the particularities of the formal language within which a theory is formulated, to the mathematical structures that are defined within a given language. 
 
Thus, for example, Newtonian mechanics can be understood in terms of one or another formulation of Newton's laws of motion, but a model-theoretic approach would focus instead on the class of formal models defined by these laws, e.g. the mathematical structures embedded in Newtonian state space .   One currently popular version of this model-theoretic approach to scientific theories is based on state-space models (van Fraassen, Giere, Suppe, Lloyd, Thomson) - virtually all of the philosophy of physics done these days involves analysis of the state space structure of physical theories.. Another model-based approach is based on structures defined as the extensions of set-theoretic predicates (this is inspired by the Bourbaki approach to foundations of math; Suppes, Stegmuller, Sneed, Da Costa and French, ...).   
 
 
But all these state-based approaches inherently limit themselves to a capacity to describe only simple systems, do they not?
 
 
 
Rosen's modelling relation approach has some affinities with all these approaches.  It's quite explicit when one looks at frameworks for studying the computational aspects of physical theories.  I took a grad course on computability and physics, and our instructor (Itamar Pitowsky, a philosopher of physics), in discussing the Church-Turing thesis and its application to physical systems, drew a diagram on the blackboard that was virtually identical to the commutation-relation description of the modelling relation. 
 
Another connection is with various forms of metaphysical and epistemological structuralism (metaphysical structuralism asserts that all that exists, is structure; epistemological structuralism asserts that all we can know of the world is structure).  George Kampis noted in his review of Life Itself that Rosen had strong affinities with structuralist traditions.  This is certainly the way I read Rosen, too.   
 
Maybe I misundertand structuralism, but I read Rosen somewhat differently. Primarily based upon what is in Anticipatory Systems, where he says that our most basic knowledge of the world are sensory impressions or 'percepts'. It is then our minds which take an active role in organizing these percepts, in establishing relations between the percepts - relations in the material world are not something we perceive directly. So that what we know (if we know anything) are the sensory impressions, and that relations between percepts are of a different order: they are creations of the mind or "working hypotheses" we impute back to the material world. [AS 46]
 
So, it strikes me that although Rosen emphasizes structural aspects (entailment structures, functional vs structural organization), it does not seem to me that he considers structure as being the sole, or even the most fundamental, epistemological entities.
 
 
 There's a whole tradition in the philosophy of mathematics that goes by the name "structuralism" too (one is known as "category-theoretic structuralism"), and though this is distinct from metaphysical and epistemological structuralism, there are lots of points of potential contact.  I'm particulary interested in this stuff, and how it can be used to develop an interpretive framework for complex systems theories (Rosennean and otherwise).
 
I very briefly looked up "category-theoretic structuralism" on the web. It seemed to be largely concerned with trying to use category theory in a foundational role for mathematics, based on a structuralist view of mathematics. Can you speak more about this "interpretive framework"?
 
There's lots more to say about all this, but I'll have to leave it at that...
 
 
Thanks. I knew that was a pretty broad question. :)
 
 
 
 
" I have also been intending to write something relating Rosennean ideas to some of those of Nancy Cartwright. Are these the kinds of relations to existing thinkers that you are speaking of (with the proviso that the level and depth of my writings are most likely substandard for academic philosophers)?"
 
I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.  Cartwright holds lots of views on lots of subjects.  For example, she analyses scientific theories in terms of their mathematical models too, and she likes to talk about the complex tangle of causal relations in the world, and how physical theories abstract away from this complexity.  That's not unlike Rosen.  But she differs from Rosen in several respects, I think; she believes, for example, that science reveals the real, true causal powers of substances in the world (she's a realist about what she calls causal "capacities"), the reality that lies behind the structural relations described by models.  I've never read Rosen as being this kind of metaphysical realist about properties or substances.  Rosen is an Aristotelian in terms of his account of theoretical explanation, but not, as far I can tell, in terms of his metaphysics.  Cartwright is an Aristotelian in terms of the metaphysics of real substances and their properties.    
 
I'd have to go back and look at Cartwright's The Dappled World and her older books again, to recall exactly what struck me about her. It was many months ago that I was considering this. I recall her use of nomological machines, which struck me as akin to a model in a modeling relation. Her "capacities" were interesting in that I felt there was some relationship with Rosen's concern with what he called the "gravitational" aspects of a system, rather than the "inertial" aspects. I also thought the ceteris paribus stipulation she emphasized were interesting. I forget if there were other notions of hers that interested me.
 
I agree that their metaphysics differ, and that the above similarities are not of the kind that necessarily support each other. But I am not really interested in authors that say the exact same or similar thing, as if truth were proportional to the quantity of one's supporting citations. I am more interested in whether the differences in Cartwright's ideas can enrich/enlarge the Rosennean view.
 
 
 
 
"But...but....this is something of a catch-22: one of Rosen's important ideas, or results, is that the current universe of discourse is too limited to include Rosennean complex systems. To attempt to cast his ideas in this limited framework is difficult insofar as from within that framework complex systems do not appear.
 
This is something I find a difficulty: in order to describe Rosennean complexity to someone it is often necessary to first describe the larger universe that contains these complex systems, and the latter is no less difficult to present than the former. Any insights on this would be greatly appreciated."
 
 
Well, I don't know about "insights", but...
 
I think the fact that this list exists is evidence that the "universe of discourse" is broad enough to allow for meaningful discussion of Rosennean complex systems.  However, if you mean that traditional modelling frameworks are too narrow to capture such systems, that may be true, but I don't see how this fact is a barrier to talking about them, to arguing for their reality and significance.  The problems facing attempts to communicate Rosennean concepts to other groups are problems that, in my experience, arise from the level of abstractness at which his key, original points are presented.  It takes a certain kind of thinker to follow a chain of reasoning that starts to loop back on itself, that is ultimately self-referential.  But this is exactly the same kind of problem I face when I'm trying to explain, say, the argument for Godel's incompleteness theorem to a student.  People schooled in abstract, mathematical thinking will get it easier than others. 
 
We can follow the analogy with Godel's theorem a little further, actually.  It's takes a while to understand the argument for it, but once you've got it, you've got it.  It's not so hard, though, to understand the content of the theorem, or to be able to discuss the implications of the theorem.  As long as you're confident that the argument for it is sound, then you can basically ignore the details.  Godel had the advantage that his arguments were communicated to a group of peers who could follow the reasoning, testify to its soundness, and appreciate the implications of it.  Rosen's arguments were never successfully communicated to a group of peers in a position to see their significance, and so there's no tradition of authority one can appeal to in talking about Rosen's conclusions.   
 
As you say, Godel's peers were all well-acquainted with his "language" - they'd already suffered through Principia Mathematica, after all.
 
I'm not sure who that peer group for Rosen would be - even today. Biologists? Not likely. Category theorists? No. Physicists? Should be, but not. Systems theorists? Doubtful. To me, philosophers of science seem a likely group. But I wonder if Rosen would be considered enough of a philosopher of science to taken seriously as a peer.