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Re: Death and experience



Thanks, Tim,
you spoke my heart. Is there anyhing to this topic in RR stuff?
 
JohnM
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: Death and experience

JohM,
 
In my view, a living organism's functional organization is lost at death. I do not think that experience can be separated from the context of the living organism as a context-independent structure of any kind. Therefore, with death, so too is lost any kind of "accumulated experience" because it no longer has a context within which to be meaningful or relevant.
 
I also do not place much importance in energy as a quantity that represents anything close to a measure of organization (including "accumulated experience") of the organism. Particularly since organisms are not energetically or thermodynamically closed, invoking ideas of conservation of energy or entropy as a way to talk about continuance of some aspects of an organism after death is a non sequitor, in my view.  
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of John M
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:06 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: Mycoplasma information?

Tim,
I am no expert in biology (the understatement of the 3rd millennium) but tackled a bit the question of procaryotes in the aspect of 'complicating' the living structures. Corrections accepted.
 
The procaryotes are - if not necessarily the smalles - the simplest creatures considered 'alive'. Citoplasm and cell membrane. With most chemical procedures of cell life. Lynn Margulis (frmr Mrs. Carl  Sagan) developed the theory of symbiotic associations - as far as I read not extended down to prokaryotes, which I did: Assuming that there were several of them "meeting" and "cooperating" when the 'social'  contract started: the conglomerates of the diverse cells separated the functions and all 'worked' together for the community. Then - by permeability of the cell membranes - some slipped inside others - keeping the functions from the inside, some became mitochondria, others the cell nucleus. At this point the eucaryotes were evolved, our stuff.
 
The procaryotes "did not die" their simple functions did not include senescence, they underwent mitosis, divided into two similar ones and (renewed) kept on living. All on environmental impact. They could be destroyed by outside brute forces, not by aging. This was before the invention of the biological clock.
 
Which brings me to the question I wanted to raise for awhile, but procrastinated:
Did RR develop a conclusion of death? Lately a friend wrote an article about "soul, that remains after death" (not a religious theory, he is an astronomer and did not identify an 'eternal soul') just the accumulated experience bothered him - as energy - how and where can it go when a person dies?
I have a different opinion (as always<G>) about the phenomenon of living, we call: dying. The living structure functions in its adjusted complexity, certain secondary failures are repaired, yet when some substantial component gets busted, the complexity does not function together anymore. Everything is there - almost - just some essential factor stepped out. Now the experience: it is not some sort of 'mental energy' as the reductionistic science imagines which can be accounted for in some 'equilibrium' inventory. It is a process of 'experiencing' in the atemporal mindfunction and the act of 'remembering' is not to scratch out a stored contraption which represents the past event, rather a 'second look' at it within the ever changing conditions of the world (and the brain). This accounts for 'forgetfulness' and 'shaping' of memories, unknown in computers, where the memory is frozen into matter. Erazing such frozen memory IS an energy-application, while the "inability to take a second look" is not.
 
I wonder how Rosen adjusted the idea of 'death'? also I would appreciate opinions to the question.  Please do not include the eternal soul which goes into heaven and plays the harp: it can be very boring after the first 30,000 years playing the same hymns.
 
Apologizing for the moribund question
 
John M
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 12:16 PM
Subject: Mycoplasma information?

Hi all,
 
A relative was recently diagnosed with "walking pneumonia", and wondering what that actually was, I did a little research. In the process I came to learn some about mycoplasmas (or Mollicutes), a kind of prokaryote bacterium (or bacterium-like) which apparently are the smallest known living organisms. Because of this latter fact, they intrigue me as perhaps being informative about "minimum requirements" for an organism being alive.
 
I wondered if anyone on the list was very familiar with them, or knew of a good web resource regarding their inner workings? Most web info I found is related to the infections they cause, rather than their internal structure or workings.
 
Tim