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Re: FW: Tholar Energy Mythth/ Please thtand by....



Well... no sooner did I fire off my last post than I checked e-mail and found that Tim had done the legwork. I'd look into further, but I don't expect to find that such standalone (no-grid) systems are going to be substantially less expensive than the one Tim found.

Going strictly with an equivalent capacity calculation (that is, based on an apples-to-apples power supply capacity comparison), the arithmetic is pretty simple. The system cost is completely unreachable (for me) even without considering storage for no-sunshine periods, based on my existing 44kW grid-supplied capacity:
44kW ÷ 3kW = 14.67 = ~15 each 3kW systems

15 systems x $45,000/system = $675,000
...just to have full system capacity for part of the time when the sun is shining. (I say "part of the time" because I'm at ~35°N latitude, which means I'll never get the full incident solar power flux, even at the summer solstice.) That gives me little to no capacity when the sun is obstructed, which is...
3,094 hr/year ÷ 8,760 hr./year = ~35%
... meaning that I'd only have access to my current system capacity approximately 35% of the time. I don't think that's going to be very convenient.

In order to satisfy the criterion that the photovoltaic system be equivalent to my existing grid-supplied power capacity, I suppose I might as well do the full power supply capacity cost comparison, wherein I install enough collection & storage capacity to accommodate the no-sunshine periods:
125kW ÷ 3kW = 41.67 = ~42 each 3kW systems

42 systems x $45,000/system = $1,875,000
Hmmm... that could be a bit of a tough sell to my wife...

I don't suppose there's a snowball's chance in (expletive deleted) that the 3kW systems include batteries. My real usage (28,500kWh/year) is approximately 3 times the usage that Tim calculated for a 10,000kWh/year home, so I would need to buy something like 120 batteries. The Trojan T-105 battery costs ~$80.00 + $16.00 shipping = $96.00;  $96.00/battery x 120 batteries = $115,200 battery cost.
$1,875,000 + $115,200 = $1,990,200 equipment cost
...and that doesn't include the cost of system installation or the ongoing maintenance & operations costs, which are significant. The batteries require periodic replacement, and ongoing maintenance (adding distilled water), and they should be operated in a conditioned space for optimum performance and longevity. How significant are the battery costs? I saw one set of calculations done at Villanova University that estimated the energy storage cost at 14.8¢/kWh, which is more than I'm currently paying (~14.5¢/kWh) for grid-provided energy!! That means that the batteries alone are not a break-even proposition... and then there's that pesky $2 million system cost.

Admittedly, there is some flexibility one way or the other in any of the numbers here, although most of the flexibility in the calcs thus far has overwhelmingly been in favor of the photovoltaic system. It seems pretty clear that no matter how you play with the numbers, they're just not in any kind of realistic ballpark for a person of my current means. Unless I've overlooked something significant in the calculations, it's pretty clear that a system of the kind described here is pretty much a rich-man's toy; IOW, the technology is not quite ready for prime time.

Nothing is more revealing in that regard than the ROI calculation. Rather than go through the battery replacement frequency calcs, I'll just assume that... I dunno, somebody gives me the batteries for free everytime I need them, or something. That's probably not going to happen, but I'll assume the miraculous for simplicity's sake. As I said, my grid-provided energy cost is ~$0.145/kWh, which is about $4,100/year annualized electrical energy cost, so just take the initial system cost calculated above, and ignore the substantial system engineering, permitting, construction, and installation costs. How long would it take me to recover my investment based on my current annual energy cost?
$1,990,200 ÷ $4,100/year = 485.4 years
OK... now I see why it's important to focus on biology. We've gotta get those lifespan numbers up higher if we're going to be able to hang around long enough to realize payback on photovoltaics. ;-)

All kidding aside, my calculations would have to be wrong (i.e., too high) by approximately two and one-half orders of magnitude to get the payback time down to a reasonable (~2-year) level. Even at two orders of magnitude (~5-year payback), I don't see that kind of potential error in the numbers. If anyone else does, I'll be receptive to hearing about it.

Cheerth,

Pete




Tim Gwinn wrote:
(I know this seems to be getting off the list-topic, but I think it is somewhat interesting, especially since Judith will soon be posting a related Rosen message on solar and sustainable energy.)
 
Regarding using a photovoltaic system as a real-time off-the-grid system, I found this link to a company in Minnesota which sells such systems:
 
The cost of a standalone (no-grid) system which supplies 3000W and produces 2400kWh/yr is approximately $45,000-$48,000US.
 
How much of a "typical" house 2400kWh/yr will power is unclear to me. Recall that Pete mentioned that his annual usage was on the order of 28,000 kWh/yr. That usage requires over 10 times the output of the system mentioned above. At various websites, I have found "average" annual home usage numbers varying widely from 6,500-14,000 kWh. Even at the low end, that is still nearly three times the size of the system above.
 
The battery units for an off-grid home using 10,000kWh/yr would have to hold ~82kWh if it was to power the home for 3 days and nights of snow. If we assume that we will be careful and intentionally cut our usage in half during that time (because we saw the storm coming), then it will only have to hold ~41kWh. A single 62lb T-105 Trojan battery will supply 225Ah*6V=1.35kWh. (http://www.trojanbattery.com/TrojanPartNumber_2.asp) This means that approximately 31 of these batteries would be needed. However, it is bad to fully discharge those batteries, so we really would need something more like 40 batteries. (Also, these kinds of batteries can stand only a limited number of deep-discharges, less than a 1000, so it is harmful to their lifespan to use less batteries.)
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***]On Behalf Of Tim Gwinn
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 8:32 PM
To: ***
Subject: Re: FW: Tholar Energy Mythth/ Please thtand by....

 ---snip--- 
 
 
Even though the corrected numbers are generally increased by a factor of 10, the results are still pretty low. If we go one more step and are pretty optimistic, and allow a conversion efficiency of 35% instead of 10%, the numbers change as follows:
2.45 kW-hours/m^2/day
447kWh/m^2/year (less than ideal weather)
1,526,058 BTU/yr
10.9 gal/yr of oil
101.7 lb/yr of coal
And, if we are looking at ultimate theoretical limits of photovoltaics, and allow a conversion efficiency of 85% instead of 10%, the numbers change as follows:
5.95 kW-hours/m^2/day
1086 kWh/m^2/year (less than ideal weather)
3,707,604 BTU/yr
26.7 gal/yr of oil
247.2 lb/yr of coal
 
The most severe limit to all these calculations is imposed by the weak amount of energy per sq-meter of sunlight hitting the earth, as Pete pointed out. I've seen numbers of 0.9 - 1.3 kW/m^2 maximum, so 1 kW/m^2 seems a reasonable value to begin with. Everything else seems to follow from that limit pretty straightforwardly.
 
I want to reiterate that this does not mean that photovoltaic systems are useless. It can act as a supplemental power source to a grid. But as a real-time technology to reliably replace connectivity to the grid for any significant length of time is pretty costly.
 
Besides an active tracking system for a large solar array (otherwise the conversion efficiency really suffers), the real difficulty, though, is how to reliably handle several snowy days in a row. I can't even imagine how many batteries would be required. I'll have to try to find some kWh numbers for storage batteries. 
 
Regards,
Tim